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Post by lb on Mar 5, 2007 17:34:30 GMT -6
Okay, 100 pattern tests on dead coyote will cost you somewhat less than $300, not counting the price of several aftermarket chokes. Maybe another hundred bucks? I am by no means a skinflint, but I think I can find a better use of that money, especially since I don't kill five coyotes a year with a shotgun. I can't agree with what has been posted.
I might try a few, but from what I can see, #4 buck is working good enough for me. I'm not blowing three hundred dollars to find out if Dead Coyote kills "better". Dead is still dead. Please define "further out and better"? And, no, I'm not trying to start an argument. I just don't get it?
Good hunting. LB
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 5, 2007 19:24:49 GMT -6
You can get efficant kills with dead coyotes at the 50-60 yrd range with little problems and a good % 65yrds with it as well. T shot has more pellets than buck shot and it stays together pattern wise better and has more FPS and more energy than 4 buck. The stuff doesn't deflect much and it hits really hard even at 150-175 ft.
I have not blown up 300 bucks testing I have shot critters with it and with the amount I have shot it is worth it to me. I don't kill alot of coyotes with a shotgun, but the ones I do, I like heavy shot. It has better range than lead and packs more of a wallop. If the cost was in line with all other types I bet no one after using heavy shot would use anything else for any game as far as shotgun ammo goes.
Duck,goose,turkey etc hunters who have used it can really see the benefits of this product, in extended range and the wallop it carrys out further and tighter patterns.
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Post by FWS on Mar 5, 2007 20:12:39 GMT -6
Just in case you guys haven't noticed Remington has predator loads available in their new Wingmaster HD ammo. Remington Wingmaster HD Features • HD = Heavy Density (12.0 g/cc) • Proprietary composite of Tungsten-Bronze-Iron • Round, consistent pellets: – Travel straighter and longer – Improve long-range lethality – Tighter patterns – More even pellet distribution • Uniform pellet density • 12.0 g/cc density for optimal combination of density and pellet count • Softer pellets are easier on your barrel and more responsive to chokes • Better patterns at long and short ranges • Approved for waterfowl hunting by the USF&W and Canada • Responds to chokes; more lethal than lead
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Post by Bristleback on Mar 5, 2007 21:40:22 GMT -6
Leonard, you don't know me, don't know my back ground, nor what I do or have done in the past that would give me access to doing such test.........talk with Rich he can fill you in....... Reread my post, plain and simple.....that was turkey info, yes I've tested countless loads and choke combinations......did I spend my money, absolutely, did I spend $300? Who knows, I'm passionate enough about it to find, try what works the best, do I take this beyond what most are willing to do, sure no problem.......I understand you are a well respected "reloader/shooter?....I'm betting you've tried a few "bullets/powders/brass/primers in countless combinations"......WHY........we all know why, not to add in all the various combinations of different powder charges and seating depths.........your time, trips to the range, even if it is out your back door.....your time is worth something...... And $100 isn't going to buy you many aftermarket choke tubes, well, I guess that will depend upon brand....... I've visited with the folks numerous times at EnviroMetal...I believe that is their name, close to it anyway.......the folks that developed HeviShot, years before Remington bought them....They were plain and simple "on it"with their development of HeviShot.........why are they being "copied" so to speak..... Talk to waterfowlers.......why do they use it.......they get tired of shooting and shooting and shooting STEEL......sure if you are a savy enough hunter and the ducks and geese cooperate and they all "drop their legs" at 20-30 yards.....no need for anything else but steel, hope you have a good lab or a boat too.........on the other hand, folks often want to shoot beyond 30-40 yards.........HeviShot will allow you to do that quite effectively........with waterfowl, turks and predators..... You don't shoot more than 5 yotes a year with a shot gun, fine, I'm betting there are better combinations, that's all........but for you to say... I doubt it will perform any better in my factory .712 choke? It's too expensive to do too much research, except on animals, IMO. I don't agree with that at all and surprised you'd say something like that, let alone type it..... My 416 Rigby is expensive to shoot, but I sure know where it shoots and have spent time on the bench with it, long before heading to the "bush" for critters....... I'm betting you too know where your rifles shoot, before you head out to "test" Technology has made advancements in the shotshell industry, HeviShot is/was one of the leaders. Why do you think so many Holograph and Red dot type scope are sold now.......you can simply do much more with a splatter gun than say 15 yrs ago...what miss a fox/ turkey.....what ever at 20-30 yards..what with a shotgun.......you bet because the pattern is about the size of a softball............ Do I expect fellow hunters to buy a doz choke tubes and a doz boxes of ammo to test.......absolutely not, but we have some responsiblitly to test what we're shooting beforehand.
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Post by ToddMiller on Mar 6, 2007 13:43:45 GMT -6
As I said, expensive GIMMICK. Made to reel in all the callers $$$$$$. Go ahead and shoot $3 a piece shells for a $10 coyote. Nuff said.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 6, 2007 14:30:04 GMT -6
It isn't about a 10.00 coyote it is about performance. I can trap coyotes with a 12 dollar trap or a 33 dollar trap.
If tungston can come down in price for all to use all will use it, the problem is this market is up and down because it has many other uses. Don't you think if these companys could sell product cheaper they would?
Some people buy higher priced rifle ammo and others like the cheap stuff, but there is a differance or why wouldn't all ammo makers try to sell a ton of the best stuff at half the cost? Volume would make up for it many fold.
When you reload is it a gimmick to buy bonded bullets or partitions, why not buy the cheapest bullet out there for all game hunting? performance cost more becuase of materials used, steps to make final product and quailty control.
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Post by lb on Mar 6, 2007 14:53:45 GMT -6
Well, I am a rifle hunter, primarily, hardly never stepping into brush for close encounters. I almost never take a coyote with #4 at over "maybe" 25 yards, and then, it's at night. I don't think I am that unusual, at least under western conditions?
Having said that, can you gentlemen really suggest, and advocate that I need all this patterning and custom chokes? I'm still a little skeptical.
And, in response to TC, if I was into "cheap" I wouldn't be handloading for the past (almost) forty years. It's not about economy, it's a matter of common sense; and that's why I said what I said, previously. There must be guys in the same boat as I, so to speak?
Good hunting. LB
PS having said that, I am (admittedly) curious to see those sensational results from my first "Dead Coyote" kill!
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Post by ToddMiller on Mar 6, 2007 15:18:29 GMT -6
TC37,
Those traps are reusable right??? Are those shells?? Go ahead and waste your money, it doesn't matter to me. But don't come on here and state it's the super duper do it all super load, when I can shoot coyotes just as dead at 1/3 the price with 4 buck. It will do the same at the ranges you stated. I'm done here.
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Post by FWS on Mar 6, 2007 16:26:40 GMT -6
And for as long as it's legal to use lead based projectiles for hunting feel free to do so.
But the day may come when you can't and rather than quit hunting you'll have alternatives such as Hevi-Shot, Rems. Wingmaster HD and bullets from Barnes and others as technologies emerge.
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Post by Bristleback on Mar 6, 2007 16:30:06 GMT -6
Plain and simple it's called advancement in technology, improvements........now we could all shut off out computers and go back to writing this down with a pencil on a Big Chief tablet and give it to a guy or gal on a pony, we'd still be conversing....right??
Gimmick, I'll grant you there are plenty of gimmicks out there, but repeat sale after repeat sale.........doesn't that tell you something....talk to the folks who have used it, so to say "been there done that" so to speak.........why would customers walk up and pick up 5-10+ boxes of this stuff, talk to them, they will tell you it works too........
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Post by ToddMiller on Mar 6, 2007 16:47:25 GMT -6
" I'll grant you there are plenty of gimmicks out there, but repeat sale after repeat sale.........doesn't that tell you something.."
Yes it does, It tells me people have more money than brains......
"why would customers walk up and pick up 5-10+ boxes of this stuff, talk to them, they will tell you it works too........ "
It's the newest, latest, greatest thing to hit the market and everybody wants it. That's why.... Kinda of like the newest restaurant in town. Busy all the time when it first opens. Look at a year later and it's closing....
Like I said, go buy it. It's your money not mine.....
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Post by ToddMiller on Mar 6, 2007 16:55:23 GMT -6
"And for as long as it's legal to use lead based projectiles for hunting feel free to do so.
"But the day may come when you can't and rather than quit hunting you'll have alternatives such as Hevi-Shot, Rems. Wingmaster HD and bullets from Barnes and others as technologies emerge."
When that day comes, I'll I'll be long gone....................
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Post by FWS on Mar 6, 2007 18:02:01 GMT -6
Don't bet on that. One ruling from a Federal court in regards to the Endangered Species Act can change a whole lot of things. Seen it happen.
As for Hevi-Shot being a 'gimmick' you're wrong, I've used it quite a bit on waterfowl and it is more lethal than lead and a great improvement on effectiveness over steel shot.
I don't care for the expense of it but it does work as advertised.
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Post by lb on Mar 6, 2007 18:37:29 GMT -6
Inso far as non lead advancements in the world of shotgun shells, it seems to me we would be blisfully ignorant, had not the enviros made such a friggin' big deal out of lead poisoning.
Which, by the way, is a bogus issue, (in my opinion) if we consider all the saved (poisoned) ducks versus all the (steel shot) crippled ducks. Now, I can't keep track of all the solutions, Bismuth, etc. or the jacked up prices. Or, the obsolete shotguns. Or maybe some of those guns can shoot the new non lead, non steel loads?
Kind of ironic that we have the wackos to thank for all these hitech scattergun improvements.
Personally, I think it's rediculous, that I cannot walk into some of my local stores and buy lead shot for quail or dove. That's funny, come to think of it, I blew off most of a case of shells last year, opening day of dove season. How lucky that they didn't cost me three bucks a pop! Probably coming sometime soon?
Ah, progress!
Good hunting. LB
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Post by Bristleback on Mar 6, 2007 19:27:18 GMT -6
It's the newest, latest, greatest thing to hit the market and everybody wants it. That's why.... Kinda of like the newest restaurant in town. Busy all the time when it first opens. Look at a year later and it's closing....Todd......relating HeviShot to the latest restaurant.....well, that restaurant opened......what......7-10 years ago..... So busy....they were bought out by Remington....who STILL advertises the "HEVISHOT" logo........who would have thought... the Remington giant.......needing to continue to use the "gimmicky" name HEVISHOT....not only cutting edge technology......but has initiated other shot companies to come up with similar products............if it were truly a gimmick it would not have stood the test of time and more critical the word of mouth... Have you shot any steel to speak of, a cause of waterfowlers great frustration.......so you shoot at a goose 2-3 times, hitting it, dropping feathers.......better have a good dog, a boat or at times comfortable boots........I just looked Kent Fasteel $12.50 a box, 1400 fps, many opt for faster, but I'll give you the definite advantage on price.....that's $.50 a pop......3 shots is $1.50...waterfowl Hevishot is $22.99 a box, $3 A bang.....so for double the cost which is skewed in your favor, but the point of cost difference is made, understood.........again for double the cost why wouldn't one opt for that.......for performance that is like night and day......if one truly can't afford it, I totally understand, been there and make those decisions all the time. As to shooting doves and comparing that, in so much, sure glad it didn't cost me $3 a bang...........Doves, now there is a tough bird to bring down....LOL!!! I blew off most of a case of shells last year, opening day of dove season. How lucky that they didn't cost me three bucks a pop! ..........seriously, a case opening day on doves? ?Hummmmmm, ya I could see where that could get discouraging, prolly best ya didn't use the good stuff. Any sporting clays or trap leagues out your way??
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Post by lb on Mar 6, 2007 20:06:19 GMT -6
That was for two of us, my son never bought a shell in his life. But, okay, call me a bad shot, if you like, but one day, us poor wing shots are going to quit rather than pay 3$X250 for a case of dove loads. That's the point I'm trying to make. You choose to belittle me, don't let it bother you, even though I exaggerated by a couple boxes.....or so?
There are already too many casual bird hunters that decide to stay home because it's too expensive. And, it don't really matter to me, driving to Yuma, two three nights in a motel, three hunting licenses, AZ CA and the Res. Adds up, Amigo.
Good hunting. LB
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Post by FWS on Mar 6, 2007 20:14:58 GMT -6
Actually that's pretty good stuff, the #3's work well on teal and wigeons and the #2's on pintail, mallards and the smaller geese out to 35 yds. I buy it for $9.99 a box of 25 which is competitive with lead duck loads. I handload steel too and in a 12 ga. a 7/8oz. load of 7's at 1700 fps knocks the hell out of doves and quail. they were bought out by Remington[/img] No, I'm pretty sure EnvironMetal just licensed Remington to load Hevi-Shot and when that licensing agreement ran out Rem. came out with their own version. EnvironMetal is loading their own and have expanded the line. Even have a new 'Dead Coyote' bullet for handloading 22 centerfires. HEVI-Shot® DEAD COYOTE!® BULLETSLike with any new technologies the price will eventually go down. I remember when VCR's came out they were $400+ and the units available now for $29.95 at Kmart are better in every way. ;D
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Post by FWS on Mar 6, 2007 20:22:25 GMT -6
Won't happen LB, I see promo steel loads in 12 and 20 ga. for under $6 a box now.
For doves and quail those work fine.
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Post by Furhvstr on Mar 6, 2007 20:50:27 GMT -6
I've shot a doz. or so coyote a year with shotgun for quite a few years now and have tried 3.0, 3.5 #4 buck, t-steel and 3 inch cop. bb's. Tsteel don't hit hard enough and #4 buck has coyote size holes in the pattern past apx thirty five yds. Settled on three inch cop plated bb's. They work well on my coys. and especially well on my cats. Which brings me to my question- Has anyone ever loaded 3.5 inch buffered cop plated bb's? Is there any load data available for that? Don't ya think that would be the cats arse? Plenty of power and cheaper than hevi-shot provided a guy had a 3.5" press.
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Post by FWS on Mar 6, 2007 21:07:34 GMT -6
Loaded 3" buffered BB's and a lighter 2 3/4" 2's for grey fox at night in the brush. The nickle plated lead shot is very good stuff but pricey. You'll find all you need from these guys, including load data. Ballistic Products Inc.
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