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Post by FWS on Dec 9, 2006 23:36:38 GMT -6
Nope, none are better choice than a .308, just a different choice.
Just looking at Noslers latest data for Nosler Partitions, one of the better hunting bullets, and the velocities for each cartridge.
243 Win.- 100 gr. NP- 3000fps 25-06- 120 gr. NP- 3050 fps 280 Rem. - 150 gr. NP- 3000 fps 308 Win.- 150 gr. NP- 3000 fps
The difference in trajectory is negligible, matter of fact they're almost identical.
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Post by lb on Dec 10, 2006 11:22:36 GMT -6
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Post by FWS on Dec 10, 2006 11:55:28 GMT -6
Not misleading or dishonest.
They're straight out of Noslers reloading manual, 5th Edition. I just took the high velocities for each with comparable hunting bullets.
Nosler lists a .308 load with a 150 gr. Partition and 48.5 grains of Varget at 3001 fps.
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Post by lb on Dec 10, 2006 18:04:14 GMT -6
Hornady Handbook 4th Edition
pg.41 243Win 75gr 3400fpsMV BC .294 200yd zero/drop @ 600 yds -66.0"
pg.61 25'06Rem 87gr. 3600fpsMV BC .322 200yd zero/drop @ 600yds -54.0"
pg.107 280Rem 139gr 3000fpsMV BC .453 200yd zero/drop@ 600yds -67.4"
pg.140 308Win 150grFMJBT 2800fpsMV BC .398 200yd zero/drop@600yds-84.6"
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Post by FWS on Dec 10, 2006 19:17:12 GMT -6
Now look who's being misleading.
Would you choose a 75 gr. Hornady out of a .243 as a big game bullet ?
Or an 87 gr. Hornady out of a 25-06 as a big game bullet ?
But you could use a 125 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3200 fps out of a .308, as Nosler lists a load of 51.5 gr. of W748.
Not my choice, but preferable to those you listed.
Care to look at the difference in energy at 600 yds ?
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Post by lb on Dec 10, 2006 20:20:12 GMT -6
I'm considering coyotes, always was. When did anyone narrow the topic to big game? (you don't want to go there, anyway) Is not the name of this forum "Coyotes 'R' Us"? There are many "big game" choices that will beat your little 308 in every catagory you care to name, especially long range, and add in your foot pounds, if you must. I'm having a hard time figuring out what you are getting at, or maybe you are just a diehard 308 fanatic? Good hunting. LB
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Post by FWS on Dec 10, 2006 20:45:48 GMT -6
You did by using the term "worthy game" and by listing the calibers you did. And by using comparable bullets suited to killing there's really very little difference.
As I pointed out earlier. Problem being that the vast majority of hunters can't ultilize the advantages offered due to the disadvantages they present. Therefore a lighter recoiling .308 that they can shoot well is a more practical choice for realitic hunting conditions and distances.
Because you failed to comprehend what I wrote to begin with.
Even for varmint rifles those 600 yard shots are generally just wishing. Too many variables to affect that little 75 gr. 243 bullet at that distance. Better off to use that 100 grainer, but then your back to a similar trajectory as the .308. ;D
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Post by lb on Dec 10, 2006 21:37:07 GMT -6
Okay, okay, forget it. I'm done, got stuff to do.
FYI, I consider coyotes and bobcat worthy "game", but never said BIG Game, as a catagory.
I think you just like to "discuss" issues? A 308 is neither fish nor fowl, strictly a short range deer cartridge, or a Service rifle target cartridge.
"Fish nor Fowl" being a figure of speech meaning it's pretty ordinary, superior for very little. So, it's my personal opinion, Amigo; just like yours, I might add. And, it seems we continue to disagree?
Good hunting. LB
PS oh, by the way, a 100 grain 243@3,000fps sighted at 200 yards drops 71.4" inches @600.
I killed an African Kudu, (which could be considered Big Game) using a 6mm 100 gr. Sierra
a 280 162gr.@2900 drops 67.6" when zeroed at 200. etc. etc. I think I proved my point, but I'm still mystified as to what your's might be?
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Post by FWS on Dec 10, 2006 21:58:38 GMT -6
And a 150 gr. .308 at 3000 fps at a 200 yd zero drops 76" at 600 yds.
Not much difference there huh chief ? And that kudu was a lot closer than 600 yds. wasn't it.
No, you proved mine with statements like this.
It's the cartridge of choice for snipers worldwide because it's so bloody accurate and consistent. And they have recorded kills in excess of 1200 yards with it.
And it's obviously more effective than you care to admit ;D
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Post by SgtWal on Dec 11, 2006 15:28:06 GMT -6
The 30 cal. weapons have their place established through decades of proven ability. Windage tables and trajectory diagrams have been researched and published for the .308 and 30-06 in almost every available load. Drop figures assume the shooter cannot for some reason adjust his sights. Hunters tend to sight in once and guess hold over when needed. Snipers and marksmen do not. The difference between a sniper or combat marksman and the average hunter is knowledge. If sighted in at say 200yds, and faced with a 500yd shot only a fool tries Kentucky Windage. Knowledge alows you to crank on some elevation and have a much better chance of success. Through practice and competition the sniper and marksman build a supply of knowledge about their weapon and ammunition and how they work under a range of conditions and various ranges. The first two have the added burden of knowing that should they miss it may cost them their lives. I have a .22 that I have fired so many times I know where the bullet is within a fraction at any range I may shoot. But that knowledge comes from countless rounds fired when afield and in practice over half a lifetime. My competition rifle was sighted in to set the base zero. Every visit to a range the sights were adjusted from that point for conditions and ranges. Time spent on different ranges under carefully observed and diagramed conditions adds to my ability to make these adjustments when needed. I see no reason to not use the same process when hunting. As I said I check the ranges, set the sights for the mid range available, and if time alows I make fine adjustments as needed. This is not for everyone because not everyone has the depth of experience to do this as a matter of course. For the less experienced it would seem awkward and clumsy. But it works for me.
wayne
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Dec 11, 2006 16:39:56 GMT -6
SgtWal, I have the utmost respect for our young men who serve in the military. I only ask that you give a little more credit to those expensive and highly developed gizmos that our military snipers have access to. You know what I mean---The super dooper range finders, wind velocity gauges and humidity meters for a start. If our honorable snipers didn't make use of all of that equipment, I would have to say that there are a lot of hunters who could do just as well.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2006 17:03:10 GMT -6
Got to agree with LB I have never seen the zest for the .308 that many others have? It gets a sniper nomination and then boy everyone thinks they got the ultimate rifle in caliber choice?
I would take a 25/06 or a 7 rem mag over a 308 anyday for hunting anything in the US or Canada. Those 2 rifles would cover any need I have can go from 100 grain to 175 and everywhere in between. Either by itself would be better than a .308 heads up Depending on what your hunting IMHO. The 7mm mag gives more ft lbs and speed at 500 yrds with the same 150 gr bullet versus the 308.
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Post by SgtWal on Dec 11, 2006 19:12:31 GMT -6
What gizmos? An optical range finder? They sell them at Wal-Mart. Can't use a lazer as it might be seen and tip off the target. The Scope? Just an ART you can get off the shelf. Windage is a matter of reading mirage and other signs because wind gauges have moving parts and the wind that matters is the wind at mid range where you ain't. The only real fancy item is the rifle, and most are based on a factory gun tricked out by a military gunsmith. Does your car make you a safer driver? Maybe a little safer inside but that's it. Does a new rifle or scope make you a better hunter? You still have to hold it, find, and hit the target. I submit that very few hunters can shoot well enough to tell good equipment from great equipment. I've seen match shooters who were good enough to see a difference between ammo lots. And a ton who couldn't see a difference between ammo from different makers. And couldn't even tell their barrel was shot out. It isn't the equipment that makes the difference to most people its the people who use it. A hunter needs a rifle they are comfortable with and trust. A marksman uses that rifle often enough to learn what it can do. After some thousands of rounds he may find he can hold tighter than it will shoot, then he needs to move up. But when all you do is sight in from a bench once a year, and empty a box or two during season, it may be a long time before you need to worry about that. Sorry but marksmanship is a skill. I have a deep respect for a real marksman, and worked for years to just hold my own in competition. I know my limits. And I have seen them perform so far beyond my level it makes one wonder. It is the basic skills that will make the difference. Not the equipment in most cases.
wayne
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richc
Demoman...
Posts: 243
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Post by richc on Dec 11, 2006 20:30:48 GMT -6
SgtWal, I guess that us red neck civilians are not supposed to know about the computerized gadgets that allows a military sniper to drop a bullet within a couple of inches or so at bookoo distances. Some of us do in fact know that this stuff exists. Nothing against the military sniper now mind you. With distance unknown, wind velocity unkown, your "Marksman" or "sniper" is left with by guess and by golly when it comes to one shot kills at something over 1000 yards.
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