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Post by Possum on Oct 19, 2008 13:35:50 GMT -6
I've caught hundreds of coyotes in dirthole sets. I've only caught a few in flat sets like pee posts, cowbones, weed clumps, pile-o-rocks and all the others I've seen in diagrams and photos. On the other hand, I've made 100s of dirtholes and if I have 50 traps set, no more than 2 or 3 of them are flat sets and most of those are locations where I already have 2 dirtholes that are made in active remakes. I catch the odd one in the flat set, the remakes catch the lion's share.
So I don't use flats much because I don't trust them, so I don't catch much in them which does little to improve my opinion of them.....yadda, yadda, yadda.
Okay, coyote pelts aren't worth a gallon of gas, I like trapping for them and I don't have anything better to do save heading for a tavern, so I'm trapping. I figure this is the year to learn flat sets.
Without a video camera running no one knows exactly what happens at a dirt hole but at least there's a theory. The coyote comes in, and when it pokes its nose down the hole to take a whiff, its front paw is 11 inches back and 2.7 inches to the right or left of center so if you have your trap set right, BINGO.
If that doesn't work, the coyote wants to dig up whatever is at the bottom of the hole and while it's digging it happens to step on the pan and BINGO.
Either way, it's more than just blind-arse luck the coyote gets snapped.
So with a flat set--say a pee post--I picture the coyote running up to the post from whatever direction downwind happens to be, taking a sniff, then lifting it's rear leg to deposit his own load of wiz.
My question is ware-N-ell do you set the trap so there's more than random luck involved in where the coyote will put its foot?
From snow trapping I know I catch 80% of the coyotes that come near my set. Can't figure out how to duplicate or even come close to that using flat sets.
Ideas, opinions? Explain it to me so it makes sense.
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 19, 2008 14:09:51 GMT -6
you know flat sets already, they don`t work as good, no eye appeal, no center of attraction. that`s all. it`s an old timey western method and no great shakes. mostly for book writers and video makers that have to come up with more filler. like a 50 other weirdo types of sets. why make an easy job hard?
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Post by trappnman on Oct 19, 2008 14:14:53 GMT -6
I don't agree- I catch as many in flat sets as hole sets- make your sets where the coyotes want to be, and they will find them. As to what makes them step in the trap- the desgin of te set- almost all my flat sets are walkthroughs. probably all of them
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 19, 2008 14:28:47 GMT -6
you need to learn dirtholes tman, make your catching easier and more efficient. serious. just like an assembly line- wham bam and down the road.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 19, 2008 14:51:40 GMT -6
Im not going to get nto a pissing match with you- perhaps you need to learn how to make flat sets? LOL
If I need to like in WY and KS- I'll make 100% hole sets...........
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Post by Possum on Oct 19, 2008 15:53:16 GMT -6
So far, I agree with Bob. Holes win.
T-man, shoot a pic or draw a diagram and describe how you entice the coyote to put its foot exactly on the sweet spot.
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Post by Possum on Oct 19, 2008 16:01:01 GMT -6
Another thought I had which might go better in a different thread but I think there's a connection to this one.
I catch about 75% male coyotes in my predominently dirt hole line. Probably 90% at this time of the year and the females make up a bit of ground a little bit once we get to cold weather.
I figure it's the big, bold sets I make, with the big bold smells which lures in the stupid but rowdy young males (and a few old timers) while the females are mostly put off by the same gusto.
That's one of the reasons I thought putting in some subtle flat sets might even the ratio. Don't mind leaving some of the gals out there to insure plenty of mommas and pups next year, but on the other hand, catching a gal-doggy is just as fun as snapping a boy-yote and I don't like missing out on more than half the fun!
Again--thoughts and opinions welcome.
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Post by dabrock on Oct 19, 2008 16:04:06 GMT -6
I have caught only females at my flat/post sets. I think they just kind-of circle around to squat and while doing so set on the trap. small clods of dirt or a stim of a leaf stuck in near the outside jaw sort-of guides where it steps. I set mostly dirthole but post sets under certain conditions.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 19, 2008 16:07:03 GMT -6
I haven't made a post set in many many years- they don't work for me- but I don't knock them- I just don't use them cause they, the type I make, don't work for me
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Post by foxcatcher1 on Oct 19, 2008 22:07:52 GMT -6
Actually I follow Bob's advised about 80% of the time but this time I'm going to have to disagree. I read one of Steve's articles in T&PC about his walk through flat sets and have used it quite frequently. Don't get me wrong the dirthole is still the bread and butter of my coyote line but I do mix in more than 25% flat sets and piss post sets. We have seen these pics before but is a female that was caught in a piss post set (fox pee) after the dirtholes quit producing. I knew she was still traveling this area regularly so changed sets. There is a chunk of burnt wood in that mud some where. A dog red in the same set a few days before I think that is the wood post just above his back foot. This one was caught in one of my favorite sets the bean duff pile. I think it qualifies as a flat set. Basically just rake up a small pile of bean duff against a backing of sorts and bed the trap in front of it. Some times the pile is shaped like a cresent to guide the coyote to the bait/lure stick tucked up under the edge of the set. I have a pic of a few caught in Tman's style of walk through. Though I think he does punch holes for the bait stick so maybe he is using the best of both lorlds. If I'm not mistaken. Don
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Post by trappnman on Oct 20, 2008 6:43:32 GMT -6
its not taking a side- its just using different methods I let the location and conditions determine the set
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Post by Possum on Oct 20, 2008 7:12:51 GMT -6
I certainly wasn't trying to dis flat set users or flat sets in general. As I explained in the original post, I want to expand my "tools." If flat sets work great for some guys, they ought to work for me, as well. Just haven't found that to be the case so either someone is pulling my leg or I'm doing something wrong. Most likely, the latter. Thus my post encouraging a "flat-set expert" to come up with some guidelines and advise I can use to improve my flat-set abilities.
Most puzzling to me is how to get the coyote to step exactly where it needs to step? I'm sure I can get one to wiz on the post, I had a set yesterday made using a clump of grass as the "feature" where the pee was poured and some lure buried at the bottom of the clump. The clump was flattened so I presume the coyote came and rolled on it.
Just looking for some help, here -- though I do enjoy a good pissing contest from time to time.
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Post by 17HMR on Oct 20, 2008 7:33:05 GMT -6
Im in the same boat as possum, I cant make them work anywhere as good as a DH, so in turn I make very few of them. I would like to make them work though because it might speed things up not having to dig a dang hole in hard ground.
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Post by lynxcat on Oct 20, 2008 7:41:38 GMT -6
Got a guy here locally that cracks 100 EVERY year....100% on flat sets..... HECK according to Bob he'd be a 4-500/year yote man!!!
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Post by trappnman on Oct 20, 2008 7:42:57 GMT -6
Im no expert, but I do like flat sets, and I felt exactly yo udid-
I honestlyl thought, that flat serts were impossible to use, and those telling me about them were pulling my leg- and I actually quit trying to make them.
until I read about the walkthrough flat set as popularised by Odon Corr and Miranda- and tried them, and the light came on.
a flat set needs to be either on location, or has a close by visual draw- for me, a ribbone stuck upright i na bare feild, works pretty goo-d gets their attention.
In any case, a flat set alone doesn't have any visual appeal- so you need to advertise it, or make it spot on location. Farm lanes are perfect such locations-
the key is 2 attractants- either 2 lures, 2 baits, etc. you can put them under cowpies, into grass clumps, next to rocks, weed edges, etc.
Spread these out some- I like 1 foot to 2 feet apart-
small holes if any are used, and straight up- you want his nose tight to the odor-
now- just give him a walkthrough between those 2 odors-
and you are done.
can't be simplier- but blending is a must which is why I don't make flat sets unless I can blend them perfectly- dust, chaff, sand etc allows that- grass, woods doesn't.
dirtholes are quicker for sure, but to say they are better, better meaning catch a coyote quicker- isn't so in my experience.
most of our locations have one of each, we often ask each other what are you making, and make the opposite. Never saw any correlation in one set the dirthole outproducing the flat set.
there should be pics in archives somewhere, if not, I'll get a few setting up mid week and post them.
setyup for the location-
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Post by PAskinner on Oct 20, 2008 9:15:42 GMT -6
I like the occasional scent post, talking fox here. We have places where the animal is going to be on a trail, no need for a lot of eye appeal when he is right there...and in mud, clay, or blowing leaves, dirtholes have a lot of maitenance problems. Gland lure on a grass clump or chunk of wood...also have had sets right on a gravel road bed, no way to make a hole. And of course, lots of trapper here use the hay sets with great success, just another form of flat set with some eye appeal.
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Post by bobwendt on Oct 20, 2008 9:45:24 GMT -6
only time I ever bother with flats is to hide my sets from other trappers, and summer asdc where I know the coyotes have been jacked with. often as not I`d sooner blind set them on the trail coming to ck. out the dirthole, if they are freaky. they`ll still come look, just stay back 5-10 feet and backkick. they know the ropes, so just use a different rope. but day in day out work, 100% dirtholes. I have a way of eliminating windblown leaves and etc.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 20, 2008 9:48:57 GMT -6
I would never say, that you would catch more or less in one set or another. You could certanly set 100% holes or 100% flat sets, and do as well if you know your craft.
I like flat sets- less digging, fit well in my set areas, are yes "invisible" to most.
could I get by without them? of course.
but why? they are very productive, are deadly on all furbearers- just like a hole set.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Oct 20, 2008 9:55:26 GMT -6
I prefer flat sets mostly because they are quick and easy. The word dig does not apply to our soils much. Either it's hard as a rock and have to be picked out or it's sand and won't hold a hole.
I have as much or more confidence in flat sets than dirtholes.
Make em out in the open and feather the pattern out, I like to scatter anthill gravel over the set and to the back and sides of the "little" bush or grass clump that I set next to..
Joel
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Ernie
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 8
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Post by Ernie on Oct 20, 2008 10:35:05 GMT -6
Jim Spencer has a interesting set in his book. he dont dig a hole set per say but he just uses a stake to make a small hole. He seems to like to stay with the KISS method with most everything he does. After a catch he will dig a hole to the outside of the catch area.
Ernie
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