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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 15:35:43 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Apr 17, 2008 15:35:43 GMT -6
its been said that you can catch as many without urine as with urine. And I have nothing to base an opinion on, because I like using urine. But I have caught coyotes in sets without urine, and I catch a couple every year in coon sets with fish oil/ no canine smelling lures-
but as many...gee, I'd be doubtful. The conscenus is that urine use increase catches, and I have no reason to doubt that. I don't see how urine use could ever be bad, after all, we tend to set in areas where coyotes urinate (stall out areas). and look at remakes- they often reek of urine.
So I'm of the belief that urine is an attractant, for whatever reasons-
on deer- I think the attraction of deer to urine depends very much so on the territory. I trap a lot of farms that have a lot of deer, and I have very minimal problems with deer. You set on ntheir travelways and they are going to mess with them a little- move 10 feet away and for me, problem solved. Something in the limestone type soils? I don't know, only know that its just not a concern for me.
As far as where- I like it on the lip of the backing- don't know why, seems to work.
Comments?
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 15:41:31 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Apr 17, 2008 15:41:31 GMT -6
yes, same here.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:09:58 GMT -6
Post by cameron2 on Apr 17, 2008 16:09:58 GMT -6
I assume, Steve, that your comments are limited to coyotes?
I've never trapped a red fox, but after watching Bob's DVD and others, they appear to be a sucker for urine/glands.
On bobcats, I have gotten good response to GOOD red fox pee, and my theory is that it is a fairly universal attractant, and doesn't offend smaller/less dominant cats with territorial issues. Because I have no red fox in my area, it may also have a curiosity appeal as well. May be wrong, but that's my thoughts.
On gray fox, I haven't seen it so much a "stand alone" attractant (like a lure, for example), but it really shows its value as an addative to good baits -- for whatever reason.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:15:51 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Apr 17, 2008 16:15:51 GMT -6
about the same for reds also-
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:21:31 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 17, 2008 16:21:31 GMT -6
How does urine increase catches? If you use it do you know if it was the urine or the bait/lure many use with the urine? If your catching them with straight urine then a different story of course, but whats to say if you had something other than the urine you wouldn't still have that coyote waiting for you?
How many coyotes pull getters? Not much urine usage there, you use the urine in that case as you mentioned to help with stall out to pull the getter or you set in that natural stalling area in the first place and coyotes will naturally use your blocking as a urinating spot.
The point I'm making doesn't matter if a getter or a trap the lure/bait makes them respond to the set. Getters being more difficult as they must pull it for a dead coyote, a trap there would have you the caught coyote in cases.
Deer,jack rabbits,cottontails and porkys are all issues with urine that is just a fact, I have far less issues with lures and baits and varying the amounts. I can set along the trail and have less impact from non targets.
Again we are talking fall trapping and what makes anyone think that urine is far better than a good lure or bait when it comes to trapping YOY coyotes and even at that time adults? IU always have 2 different things going on at most sets at that time of the year and 1 or the other or both makes those coyotes respond enough to wear an ankle bracelet a high% of the time without the need to be squirting pee. Many sets the visual is enough to catch them, I have caught coyotes at sets with out lure or bait and just a visual attractor, closer to the travel route the better this works. It can be a trench set, a plain bone or what ever. I just have never found that with giving them either a visual,a good lure/bait or combination of both has not worked just fine for the most part. There are some limited circumstances where urine has a place but for fall trapping in a stable coyote population I just don't see it.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:25:22 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Apr 17, 2008 16:25:22 GMT -6
I don't know the answers to any of that-
Let me ask you this- why has the conscenus of coyote trappers, over the years and in the books, including Hoofbeats- that urine increases catches? and no, I don't believe its to sell urine, as many of those old boys collected their own urine.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:37:33 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 17, 2008 16:37:33 GMT -6
Yes that is it! OG sells urine! Many who proclaim it as a god send sold urine! We also had the old boy's telling us we needed to cover everything but the seat in the car/truck with the stuff to catch fox! Early writings on urine useage and results where from Pete Rickard and Stanley Hawbaker guess they sold it too! OG also states when he has livestock around and high rabbitt populations he would use little to none at all, and he also states he will use no urine at a fresh hole set with a clean trap as well. I think he uses it more to mask on remakes, I could be wrong, but OG isn't the end all in this, it is what I have found to be true where I have trapped and have gotten away from useage alot because I seen no real benefit to it at catching normal fall populations of coyotes. Many Old coyote trappers would tell you the stronger smelling the better! Many say oh no strong urine means bad things,etc etc. One wrote on how ammonia in the urine repels coyotes LOL! If you want to use urine great, my contention is it adds nothing to the catch over good baits or lures and IMHO your catch will not fall off because one doesn't use it! I haven't seen that to be true!
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 16:51:58 GMT -6
Post by 3n on Apr 17, 2008 16:51:58 GMT -6
The thing I find interesting about the old timers was the amount of urine they used at a set...Wiley Carroll, Del Kramer, Roy Kuykendall and Homer Pickens all talked about a few drops at a set..everything now is a couple of ounces or more and freshen the set with urine every check..more isn't always better.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 17:25:38 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 17, 2008 17:25:38 GMT -6
I'm betting 3n those guys didn't sell urine, they used it when needed.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 18:26:43 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Apr 17, 2008 18:26:43 GMT -6
there is a time to set a trap blind, a time to set a snare with no attractant at all ,etc etc. but they all pale compared to a good urined up set if the ground and weather co-operate. there is no point arguing it. it`s like arguing if it is going to get daylight tomorrow. well yaaa, barring the earth ends.I advise whoeve wants to, never use urine again, to thus catch what you deserve! or better yet rather than state of the art knowledge available today, trap how sold old diuffer did 50 years ago. they all used #4 double longs too. this thread is just dumb when someone says urine is worthless. tc, you are just arguing to be arguing right now. you sure you aren`t wiley in disguise? surely you have some gov`t study trashing the value of pee. but then again one who catches 15 porkys in a row before changing the game plan, well, you know.... heck anyone can watch a dog or coyote or fox and they pee on everything in sight and ck out everything that anything else peed on. don`t you just hate believing your lieing eyes?
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 19:59:30 GMT -6
Post by ohiyotee on Apr 17, 2008 19:59:30 GMT -6
But bob he told you he did change the game plan he stopped the urine................ and to say the same catch can't be made without it is speculative. i guess i started this mess and Like i have said many times i don't catch the yotes alot of you do so i have refrained from responding , but i can't help but think from my own experience that i agree with a lot of what tc says. and if you think that moving your set out of the "travel route" will accomplish anything in my part of the country , well you don't have deer.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 20:04:55 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Apr 17, 2008 20:04:55 GMT -6
whatever, it`s not worth arguing over, to me. I know what worksand intend to keep using what works. ity truly "TIME TESTED" by hundreds of thousands of trapers dead and alive, and millions of dead canines. that and my own field work is good enough for me. in fact as good as it gets ijn determining wives tales vs tried and true fact.
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Urine
Apr 17, 2008 20:09:21 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Apr 17, 2008 20:09:21 GMT -6
Bob I'm not arguing to argue, I have cut back alot on pee in the last 10 years and it does little to the end result, those are the facts! Those that use it at 50%+ of there sets along with bait or lures think it is the piss? I say leave it home and try without in the fall and see what happens, if your on location and use good sets the pee isn't the key!
I have also watched my dog find where a coyote pissed but her mind is on something else or wants other things- it will be a quick sniff and gone down the road or a quick sqwat and on down the road, not to mention YOY coyotes need to eat Bob and even when full bellied you can bring them into a call, they are wired different the greed factor comes into play, have to get it before the other guys/gals do works just as well as the pee and in most cases better, your getting a more agressive behavior and more time with a good lure or bait or both in the fall.
I'm done continue on spraying the earth and I'll continue on with my limited use and we will all kill coyotes, I'll smell better at the end of the day LOL.
If you have an older population of coyotes, very low population, if your trapping in breeding season or trapping durring pup rearing and trying to catch some call shy coyotes urine has it 's place at times, but the main point is fall trapping and then again I will say urine is no better and won't give you the time good lure/bait will at the set.
Porkys you have little control over when you catch one and they stink it up with there scent your going to have more come around and there is little you can do besides set other areas.
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 4:34:58 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Apr 18, 2008 4:34:58 GMT -6
I`ve done the reverse. havn`t used lure on coyotes in 15 years or so. just pee alone, or a combo of pee and bait. of course the bait is same as lure as it is rk`s nelson fact simile. and one of the main ingredients inthe nelson formulaea isd pee also. I adressed the fall use on another thread. as far as scarce or old coyotes, that`s near 100% of my ks line the last 10 years because of mange. nothing left but bald ancient geezers. in wyoming even less as ws works them over around the clock. back here in indiana is the only virgin coyotes I have. and they are so easy it`s plumb funny, with pee! and I don`t know anyone spraying the earth, rather a good shot on the backing. about a 16 oz bottle a day keeps me running dawn to dark on 24s, unless pounding in a whole new line. as far as porkys, they are worth more than a coyote now, maybe you need some more pee.
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mean1
Demoman...
Posts: 173
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 4:39:49 GMT -6
Post by mean1 on Apr 18, 2008 4:39:49 GMT -6
I believe over the years why old timers say "Urine catches more animals" is because they didn't have the option of such good lure and baits then as we do today. They used what they had that best kept the traps full or wanted animals dead, and what was natural to the coyote as well. If those old timers were all here on this site today and had Chaottier, BR Cheesbait, RK's bait etc. I am sure they would still use urine, but not as much if those other lures/baits worked and caught coyotes for them. I personally do not use urine at dirthole sets, i use it away from the dirthole at flat or scratch, trench set, sometimes only a few drops and a few yards away. Dirtholes together with urine works because we know it does and many catches and footage show that, but over my time viewing coyotes feed on deer and turkey carcasses they kill and carcass piles i put out, never seen were they pissed on what they were going to soon eat. It was always a distance away from the meat/bait location. Mean1
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 4:54:30 GMT -6
Post by bobwendt on Apr 18, 2008 4:54:30 GMT -6
I disagree, having been in the live biz for 25 years and handling close to 20,000 live fox and coyotes in that time, I see the fox and coyote both stash food in piles in cage corners and pee it up good. in the running pens when feeding time comes the coyotes get tame enough they know a horn honking means feed time and a fresh carcase or meat scraps are there. the pen owners have over and over detailed watching the aproach and eating orders and habits of the coyotes. it`s a pee fest. every one of them. directly on the feed. these pen owners don`t trap or buy or sell pee, lol, no dog in the race so o speak. it just boggles my mind this is even open for discussion. whatever, like Isaid earlier, I advise no one use any pee at all, after all if little is good, none must be even better.
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 5:39:01 GMT -6
Post by Zagman on Apr 18, 2008 5:39:01 GMT -6
TC does make a valid point as to urine's effectiveness and how we evaluate it: few trappers use ONLY urine at a set in a wholesale manner. It is generally used with one or more lures, bait, site attractors, etc. and any combination thereof. How could one state matter-of-factly that urine did the trick?
That being said, I use a lot of urine and really dont see any reason to trap without it. Why change something that aint broke?
But to TC's point, its the same as testing lures. Some claim that one lure out performs another, yet I doubt if any fur trapper truly goes through a true test during fur season to determine this.
Even at a microlocation, you cannot create two identical set presentations. Sure, you can make two identical dirtholes, but wind direction, animal travel direction, other lures, baits, and urines at the set create an uneven playing field.
Like fishing out of the front of the bass boat and the advantages thereof, one set will always be encountered before the other one, right? And that set will NOT always be the same one from location to location.
Honestly, how many people, when testing a new lure given to them, only use IT at the set across the board and every set?
Now, if a guy would use, say Canine Call this year ONLY, at every set, and nothing else, keeping good records for comparison.....
Then, next year, on the exact same line, use nothing but Cachottier, you could get a little better data. But why would anyone, especially with canines, limit themselves to one smell? But even in the scenario above, a year-to-year comparion is flawed due to animal population variances, percentage of YOY vs. adults, weather, etc, all coming into play.
For me, lures that I like WORK for me, i.e, they catch the target animal. Just as importantly, I also like the way it comes out of the jar or bottle. Ease of use, in other words.
Thus, the thicker Cachottier!
The old Major Boddicker lure tests were probably as unbiased as they could be, and probably one of the only ways to TRULY test one lure vs. another.
Have at it, Steve! LOL
Zagman
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 6:35:26 GMT -6
Post by jim on Apr 18, 2008 6:35:26 GMT -6
MZ: How did Bodicker do the test. I have told how I have tested several lures/baits by having a line of deep dirt holes in a row where I had worked up the soil so I could see all the tracks and see what holes they would work the most. This in late summer/early fall, most of my coyote trapping is in late Oct. early Nov. Jim
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 6:40:35 GMT -6
Post by jim on Apr 18, 2008 6:40:35 GMT -6
I also put out a urine post once with pee at the end of the line of dirt holes to see what attraction it had for them. Jim
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Urine
Apr 18, 2008 6:59:53 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Apr 18, 2008 6:59:53 GMT -6
hers where we need to be careful-
and if you think that moving your set out of the "travel route" will accomplish anything in my part of the country , well you don't have deer.
1) I not only think that, I know its true.
2) the deer population here, in SE MN, is among the top per sq mile as many places that consider themselves as having deer.
3) If you cannot avoid deer in your traps by moving the locations of those traps a tad, then you cannot.
I CAN.
Many of these farms are in zones considered way over carrying capacity, and 6 tags can be had by any hunter in that zone.
But since you came to the conclusion that its impossible to move traps to avoid MOST deer, please tell me what you have tried and how thats failed for you.
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