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Post by CoonDuke on Apr 1, 2004 22:27:22 GMT -6
Terry, I can easily believe that after time, the paw compresses to the point where the jaws do totally close. But like you said, at that point the foot is swollen below the jaws and the animal is going nowhere.
A standard offset (like on a Duke 1.75, Bridger #2, etc.) didn't close initially on the gray fox foot I played around with. Not above the pad, not at the pad, not on the pad, and not on the toes. It did totally close between the pad and the toes if I remember correctly.
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Post by Clefus on Apr 2, 2004 19:47:50 GMT -6
Just to throw another iron in the fire..... When an animal is caught...does it take the hardest lunge right after the inital catch and and continue at the same energy level or relax and conserve energy and let the foot swell up to what yall been talkin about....or does it keep a steady pump?.. Does anybody see what I'm getting at?? I have very few offsets so I'm talking from reg or laminated experience...
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Post by Maineman on Apr 3, 2004 7:57:19 GMT -6
When an animal is caught...does it take the hardest lunge right after the inital catch and and continue at the same energy level or relax and conserve energy and let the foot swell up to what yall been talkin about....or does it keep a steady pump?.. Does anybody see what I'm getting at?? Clefus, after being caught, K9’s typically have 2 major "timeframes" when they aggressively "fight the trap". Each of these sessions last approximately 60 minutes or less. The first comes immediately after the trap snaps, and the second comes at or just prior to sunrise when an animals instincts want them returning to their dens. That’s not to say there’s not an occasional pull or lunge but studies have shown that the trap will be tested most severely at these two occasions. Following the initial struggle, the animal will simply curl up and sleep until I wake them up in the morning. I've seen where a fox will have frost and snow laying on their backs when I arrive at 3:30am. Personally, IMHO, I believe that by checking (as I do) at 3, 4, and 5 o’clock before work, I miss that second “aggressive fight”, and chance for escape. Just my 2 cents…
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Post by dj88ryr on Apr 3, 2004 8:14:49 GMT -6
Hmmmm, That is interesting Maineman, and follows what I had always thought was the case. Who did the study? Is it available online? I would be interested in reading it. How many of us don't check till after first light because of fear of spooking those not caught yet,.....Well, how about LOSING those already caught!!! Another quandry......LMAO!!
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Post by trappnman on Apr 3, 2004 9:19:41 GMT -6
I didn't know about the 2 major times- the first I always agreed with, the second makes sense. Third way- when a combine goes down the field road.... Seriously- you broughht up a couple of points- well, three actually. I did say this was "rambles" so i'm rambling.... 1) I would have to guess that the majority of pullouts occur within a few minutes. Yet we have all seen (some of us more than others, right Cursin'Duke? ) pullouts before our eyes- so renewed effort when rested does certainly cause pullouts. But I believe the majority of pullouts in "good" traps are in that first period. I have had only 2 pullouts when I was there- one long ago, where I emptyed the 9 shot H & R to no avail and the one I ran down when collaring. Since the pistol epsiode, I now shoot all my coyotes with my 22 rifle. I stop far enough out that the coyote doesn't get too crazed, stop the truck, get the gun out, open the door and roll the window down halfway. Makes a perfect rest and I just wait a bit till he stops spinning and looks at me- 1 shot with a LR and no more pullouts! 2) early trap checking. I see your view- yet I know, based on tracks in snow that coyotes are still working hard during that time frame- you HAVE to be spooking coyotes that might, if checked a few hours later, be there. Does this make up for less pullouts? I don't know, all guess work, of course. 3) I like many others, have seen coyotes at the sets (not in a trap) when checking- usually when I had another in a trap. Does anyone routinely call in good locations when they come up to a coyote in a trap?
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Post by trappnman on Apr 3, 2004 9:48:11 GMT -6
Speaking of chain- Griz- did you get a bulk price for us?
LOL- I STILL want a definitive answer. I am 80/20 in favor of the offsets-yet.......
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Post by trappnman on Apr 3, 2004 9:56:40 GMT -6
Ok, Ok- Here is my quandry-
Do offsets have an advantage when canine trapping?
Yes or no?
I actually think NO- yet have never seriously used bigger traps so don't KNOW.
In favor of offsets: perceived kindness MORESO than regular thick or laminated jaws to domestics- and feet in general.
Is this real or not?
PR work too of course.
I know many big trap coyote people WANT offsets- have heard- wouldn't set a trap that wasn't offset.
Its the old thing- offsets will lose you a few toe caught coyotes....but will the bigger trap size "offset" the offsets and give less toe catches to begin with....thus more total coyotes?
____________________________________-
Sot, by using the offsets I wonder- would the offsets give me more overall coyotes- and less damage to domestics over a regular, even laminated trap?
I'm leaning toward yes-
Am I right or wrong?
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Post by 17kiss on Apr 3, 2004 10:35:18 GMT -6
Aint going to say much other than, all my 3s are reg. jaws , most with laminations. 75% of my 2s are reg. jaws, all with laminations. I had more problems with offsets vs. reg. jaws in the 3 years I was playing with them.I am keeping all my traps simply cause I got too much work in them , now. I do feel with the addittion of laminations will hold a percentage more coon.Offsets are one of those things you probably should try out and draw your own conclusions on.
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Post by CoonDuke on Apr 3, 2004 10:40:42 GMT -6
Kiss, Quick question... Were the problems with offsets damage problems or pullout problems?
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Post by CoonDuke on Apr 3, 2004 10:44:23 GMT -6
"Its the old thing- offsets will lose you a few toe caught coyotes"
I have yet to form a conclusion on this. It would be nice to see some of the coyote men citing examples of toe caught animals held in offsets.
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Post by dj88ryr on Apr 3, 2004 10:52:07 GMT -6
Maybe they have in a round about way, empty, sprung traps?
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Post by trappnman on Apr 3, 2004 12:02:28 GMT -6
Aw crap...now I am leaning toward reg jaws.
Z-where in heck are you on this issue-
you western guys- Chris, I know you like offsets- why?
and no- I am not going to take easy way out and get some of each! LOL
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Post by 17kiss on Apr 3, 2004 12:18:01 GMT -6
CD , In short both. Remedied some of the damage problems with grinding. Grey fox are my measure for damage. I think we all agree they are the ones most damaged.Coons and some fox(once again probably greys)pulled out. Reds and coyotes with their rather large paws had no problems with. Edge , I am with you . have had a small piece of peat moss release an animal or two. Steve , Some of the western trappers dont have ground debri to deal with as in the Northern states. Sandy soil and offsets will go hand in hand.
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Post by PAMINK on Apr 3, 2004 13:02:44 GMT -6
I'm not a big # guy and never will be. Let me name a few who are and use offset traps exclusively. J.C Conner, Craig O'Gorman, Slim Petersen, Scott Huber and I'm guessing Chris M.
There's a pile of yotes caught by these guys and I'm sure there are a lot of names I left out.
If there wasn't an advantage in offsets these guys wouldn't be using them. Thier livelyhood depends on the equipment they use. That's enough proof for me. Terry
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Post by dj88ryr on Apr 3, 2004 13:05:43 GMT -6
Good point Terry, but you left out one big number guy that favors Reg Jaws...Gappa!! Like I have said before, I am 1st a fox trapper, maybe when I see more coyotes, I will change my mind, but for now, reg jaws for me.
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Post by trappnman on Apr 3, 2004 13:23:03 GMT -6
Nah- I'm not a big numbers guy- and in the smaller traps, there's no contest- reg jaws outperform pffsets.
But as Terry says- the list of western trappers that use offsets is overwhelming.
So Terry- why do you think they USE offsets.
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Post by Maineman on Apr 3, 2004 14:47:31 GMT -6
I'm a BIG numbers guy on mice...I caught 2 more this morning in the fur shed...lol My vote goes to regular jaws...I respect the fact that the men you mentioned know what their doing but I personally have not seen the pullouts or damage caused by regular jaw traps...
With that said, many of my traps are laminated...Nothing fancy, just #9 wire I welded on top...Does that make a difference, who knows...I do use some #2 offset bridgers , 4 coiled and laminated but catch rate was the same as the regular jaws...I forget who said it above but if I were to go to offset jaws I think the reason would be one of public relations more than anything,,,Some of these uneducated yuppies we have moving out here from the city would see more compassion in that 3/16th gap than they would an overpopulation of coons starving to death...
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Post by dj88ryr on Apr 3, 2004 15:04:01 GMT -6
Well said Maineman ;D AYUH!!
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Post by PAMINK on Apr 3, 2004 15:07:33 GMT -6
Steve, Steve, Steve. You and me have gone through this before in great detail on another post. I can't type well and won't retype it. ;D ;D
So in essence I believe it's all about the leverage offsets produce by letting those levers come up just a little higher and locking in. Nobody here will ever convince me that lower levers will outperform higher levers. All and all the trap has to be designed right. If and offset trap has low levers to begin with and is offset, it won't matter. A good example would be the old style SJ Montgomery trap. Losses from pullouts were too high because it was a poor design.
The Victor 175 offset has tremendous holding power but it had a weak baseplate which could be beefed up. High levers and offset correctly. The kill area is a tad small for strict coyote work ;D. If Someone made that trap with a little bigger jawspread I would buy 100 more tomorrow.
DJ - Didn't you have coyotes in NH?? Maine had lots. We've had yotes here since the early 80's.
Round 5 DING!!
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Post by dj88ryr on Apr 3, 2004 15:30:56 GMT -6
Terry, yes we had coyotes from about the early 80s on, and I did catch my fair share, but in bigger traps, I was never as worried up there about incidental domestics, they weren't a problem where I was trapping. I also used regular jaw traps. But it should be stated, that even though we had coyotes, I never considered myself a coyote trapper, I was even there, trapping fox, in #2s . I did set some #3 specifically for coyote, but I have a lot to learn about Yotes. Being in PA now and with all the other variables we have to deal with, just puts me that much more behind the learning curve. I hope you guys will turn the light on at the canine demo.
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