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Post by trappnman on Mar 31, 2004 8:43:40 GMT -6
I'm going to bite the bullet this year and use more offsets on my coyote line. I have resisted offsets in the past, because of the incidental coon catch. But....but....but.... I'm going to change over to #3 for at least 50% of my line this year- and I decided I am going to be using the offset jaws- just for the incidental domestics. And while I am going to try as much as possible to use the offsets where coon catches are least likely, I am going to be catching coon in them- and going to be losing some of those coon! While a certain % are going to be a deeper catch with a bigger trap and thus a beter, higher hold- I have taken way too many coon by 1 or 2 toes not to believe that I am going to be missing coon. but...but....but.... as Wiley once said (in esaperation, imagine that!)..."Well, I guess you have to decide then- do you want a coyote trap or a coon trap." Cold words I know...but to the point More coon lost than coyotes gained? (and this too will be an interesting point- will I be gaining coyotes with #3s over #1.75s?) Don't know. On either issue. My expectations are that while I will be losing coon- by trap placement and set location, I can keep it at a minumum- I will indeed be gaining coyotes. And I expect- no- strongly anticiapte- that the number of snapped traps will be reduced. Reduced snapped traps doesn't necesarily mean a higher year end total of yotes...but we shall see ;D Comments?
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Post by Zagman on Mar 31, 2004 8:49:03 GMT -6
"winds of change are blowing......"
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Post by chessiepup on Mar 31, 2004 8:50:13 GMT -6
do you also expect a higher chew out rate with the larger#3 as well? I was going to go with all montana's standard jaws next season and set 1.5s with a coon lure or bait somewhat nearby hopefully to pull them away from my main sets
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 31, 2004 8:56:46 GMT -6
Well, I got an opinion on this... ;D ;D ;D
The offset Montana #3 does not allow the levers to come up any higher than on a regular jawed trap. Therefore, I would think that the regular jaw and the offset models have equal holding capabilities for canines. The traps are mechanically identical when a paw is in the trap. (I am assuming that the offset gap is not large enough for the trap to fully close when the paw is in it...THIS IS IMPORTANT)
If you had more fox, the offset model would be a good choice becase of the "toe cutting off" problems with regular jawed traps. I believe you said before that coyotes toes are tougher and a reg jaw won't nip them off...so jaw type really is a moot point for coyote.
I have not ever witnessed any damage differences in offset vs. regular jawed traps on a good catch. Others may have...but I have not.
So I guess what I am trying to say is that with the mechanics of the Montana traps and the absence of fragile toed fox on your line, I don't know if it would be worth it to lose those coon.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 31, 2004 9:35:49 GMT -6
Zags- read all about it in my new article "Minnesota trapper sees the light..."
CoonDuke- Domestics-plain and simple.
I have a couple good locations where I catch the farmers dog every so often. And cats (I know, I know- cats are controversial- but as I have said many times- these farmers KNOW their cats).
We have been around this a time or two- but lets go through it again- ARE offsets kinder than regular jaws?
I wish the injury scores were in the BMPS- does anyone have a copy of the raw data- the chart with efficentcy, strength, injury scores?
Chewing- chessie, I have never noticed ANY difference in chewing patterns in any trap with a coon in it.
In my otter work, I caught tons of coon in primarily trail sets- most having access to water. I found the chewing with the #11 to be no different than in a 1.5 coil- or in a #2 fully modifed, etc. With bigger traps- #3 and #4- my only coon experience is as incidentals in beaver taps- although I often change beaver sets into coon sets after the beaver are removed- and the chewing is the same there.
Go with the 1.5 and coon lure/bait- set them in cover or close to cover.
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Post by a1foxhopper on Mar 31, 2004 9:41:31 GMT -6
The only reason I would ever use offsets would be because of the incidental catches you mentioned. With the larger size traps it is probably more important. Even though I would love to have the larger "kill" area of the 3's I think I will stick to the smaller regular jaw traps. I'm sure I will miss some coyotes,catch more coon and do less damage to the incidentals I have to release. Until I move away from this urban jungle I have to cross my fingers and rely on 24 hour checks and smaller traps...... Did I make any sense? I'm not sure
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Post by chessiepup on Mar 31, 2004 9:51:07 GMT -6
A1 I am wrestling with the same thing right now, I was all set to stick with a 1.75 and live with the problems I have with them,until I got 1 of the montana's, my lord I do believe I 'm in love!!! , in the time it takes me to tune up 1 duke I could do a whole dozen montana's and they would be better to boot,so I'm gonna say screw it and see what happens, if the results are ugly well I will save the#3's for later in the season and go back to 1.75's
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Post by Traveler on Mar 31, 2004 9:51:13 GMT -6
Here's something I've done for years to help a bit with this problem.I use a little farther back trap placement where the odds of coon are the greatest on my coyote sets.Be it flat set,dirt hole,double dirt hole,cache set I just move my trap placement back about 2 inches more than what I would normally.This gets me a higher percentage of hind foot catches on coons.With the wide jaw spread and hind foot catches,losses goes down to about zero. ;D
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 31, 2004 9:53:07 GMT -6
Steve, We can't rely on the BMP data when talking about the Montanas. The nature of the offset is different.
If the paw of the dogs you expect to catch is larger than the offset gap, and the jaws do not close tight to the lugs, there is absolutely no difference in the traps. Zero, zip, nada.
The only conceivable difference I can see is if a small dog is caught by one or two toes the offset may help, but on a good high catch there will be no difference.
Is the offset on the Montanas 3/16"? If so, the offset will not close tightly even on a small gray fox foot. Most dogs have a bigger foot than that.
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Post by trappnman on Mar 31, 2004 10:00:04 GMT -6
Setting back would help, as would more tension. We can't rely on the BMP data when talking about the Montanas. The nature of the offset is different.I understand 1 is lugs and the other is, "cutouts" I take it? But how would that make a difference If the paw of the dogs you expect to catch is larger than the offset gap, and the jaws do not close tight to the lugs, there is absolutely no difference in the traps. Zero, zip, nada.I tend to agree with that also- BUT....
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Post by dj88ryr on Mar 31, 2004 10:04:48 GMT -6
I don't use offsets and won't start now, I have never seen any appreciable damage on domestics with regular jaws. I do grind my jaws smooth on all of my traps, don't have to with the Montana's, I do not think you are going to get damage with those jaws. I think if you stay with regular jaws, you can accomplish both goals with those new traps.
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 31, 2004 10:21:19 GMT -6
The cutout offsets allow the levers to come up higher and lock the jaws better. The spring is also in a different position of release (whether it makes a difference I have no idea but it is different.) Now, some say that if the levers come up higher it holds the paw better in place and it causes less damage. I have no proof of this and like I said before, I never noticed much difference in damage between the two jaw types. I do believe that a cutout offset will hold better though. Say you have a trap with a cutout offset and a trap with a lugged offset and a trap with a regular jaw. Everything is equal except the type of offset. Both offset traps are 3/16" offsets.... Picture a paw in the both regular jaw and the lugged offset. If the offset lugs are removed, the position of the jaws, levers and spring do not change one bit. Now, picture a paw in the cutout offset and imagine "filling in" the offset. The jaws open up, the levers drop, and the srping position changes. So... There is a mechanical difference between a cutout offset and a regular jaw. There isn't a mechanical difference bewteen a lugged offset and a regular jaw...unless the offset is large enough that the jaws would close to the lugs. Now here is something else to ponder... Many guys do not like lugged offsets beacuse they think the levers do not come up as high as a regular jawed trap. This is true when the trap is closed, but when there is a paw in the trap larger than the offset gap...the traps have identical lever height!
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Post by 17kiss on Mar 31, 2004 14:14:20 GMT -6
AHHH , CD. Look back over what you just said.Too me the offsets levers locking up higher are a moot point with either style. Was working on a padded jaw trap and did not think levers came up high enough. then got to thinking , with a paw in it , they wont either. So , I took your paw test one further. locked one on a willing accomplice and had him pull as hard as he could. We tried hard pulls and steady pulls. No slipping. Bottom line is , you will lose a percentage of coon with offsets. If worried about domestics , laminate. Why trade off?
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Post by CoonDuke on Mar 31, 2004 14:21:23 GMT -6
There is a difference there Kiss...
The pads add bulk where the pad touches, unlike the lugs. THis may keep the levers down a little.
BUT...Having said that...IF the pads compress enough where it grips the paw, it is likely to not make much of a difference.
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Post by 17kiss on Mar 31, 2004 14:33:11 GMT -6
Thanks CD , you know you have to keep me in line ;D Using Jake pads with them nice ribs in them.
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Post by CoonDuke on Apr 1, 2004 12:20:22 GMT -6
ttt for mtnman
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Post by vttrapper on Apr 1, 2004 13:15:27 GMT -6
Steve,
I predict you are going to really like the big traps!!!
CD,
One other thing about lugs, They can cause damage. I have seen it more than once. I use sheared jaws and do the nessisary mods to make a proper trap. Ground down my monties to make the offset. Was well worth the effort.
frank
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Post by BrandonH on Apr 1, 2004 13:47:20 GMT -6
Frank is right about the lugs causing damage. Most lugged offset traps i have have the lugs welded on the corners of the jaws, and this design can lead to animals being caught squarely by the lug. Another reason why I am impressed with the Montana's. Lugs are in a much "friendlier" spot.
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Post by PAMINK on Apr 1, 2004 22:05:14 GMT -6
CoonDuke I have to disagree with you on paw size and offsets. I have seen offset jaws compress paws on cats, fox and coyotes to the point where the levers totally lock.
When those levers lock and the foot swells below the jaws the critter is SOL.
Proper spring strength combined with center swiveling and laminations to prevent as much foot sliding as possible. That's about the best we can do. Terry
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Post by rk660 on Apr 1, 2004 22:26:38 GMT -6
Steve, I dont think your coon loss will be that severe, I'd venture to say you wont lose a hind footer and not too darn many front footers. i hate offsets in the water on coon, but when caught on dryland its not nearly as bad from what ive seen. them bigger traps are gonna grab higher for the most part. Your 24 hr check will be be fairly decent on them as far as chewing, even with bigger trap. I find find time in the trap is the biggest factor for how much chewing you get on coon, more so than size of trap. All that said, Wiley pretty much gave you the bottom line.
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