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Post by walkercoonhunter(Aaron L.) on Mar 10, 2006 20:00:15 GMT -6
point is they can piss and nuts when they want in a trap...they how ever cant get food or water...and i want you to show me where i was busting on ANY CERTAIN PERSON in my post....come on down and i will tir you to a fence post and let you there for 3 days without food or water or shade ....and we will see how you like it....bet ya dont like it too well....just because its the law dosent mean its right....but hey ITS THE LAW IN YOUR STATE SO FEEL FREE TO DO IT.....i would feel much better about what steve said in a 48 hr check law....but 72 hrs is a bit much....not against longer check laws....just against the 72 hr check.....its way too long in my book....NOTICE I SAID IN MY BOOK....
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Post by ColdSteel on Mar 10, 2006 20:49:16 GMT -6
Some of you boys must not have the same things I have on my line DOGS and alot of them.I catch hounds as well as peoples pets and it is very very hard for me to believe some of you dont either.We have a 72 hour trap law on submerged conibears and it is a good one but land traps is a different story.I would check my land sets every day even if a 72 hour law passed mainly to keep the pest and hounds out of my sets.Trapping in my parts already has a tarnished name and a 72 hour check would only multiply the problem
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 10, 2006 21:01:02 GMT -6
No you didn't say in your book when you referenced come on down and I'll tie you to a fence post for 3 days, that put it into ALL who run 72 hr checks or longer!!!
You try and give animals the same thought process as humans you can't do that until you can sit and talk with a coyote,beaver,coon,mink,bobcat,deer,rabbit,squirrel, skunk,possum etc. Until they can have a human conversation or have the ability to reason like a human you have nothing but feelings for a group that have nothing close to human thoughts or human feelings, sounds anti to me.
You state yourself as a man who has walker coon hounds have you asked the coons how they like to be run down by dog's? Or how they liked to be attacked by 1-3 hounds on the ground being rip limb from limb or having their neck broken by a canine? I feel for those poor coon LOL How would you like to be chased through the woods at night by vicious dogs and not being able to rest or find water? and then your only recourse is to climb a tree to wait the outcome of a vicious human with a 22 caliber rifle and shining a bright light in your eye's only to be shot to death? Could we treat humans that way and be civil?
You make NO SERIOUS claim to your ideals of a 72 hr check law being inhumane or bad, because when we run it under your guidelines what really is humane and by who's standards is it humane? You have 24 hr check laws due to public perception and because of close proximity to others and domestics without that and years ago before the antis and pet watchers we didn't have check laws, you see in your eyes as 24 hrs as the magic bullet or 48 as acceptable, yet your range stops and all of the sudden 72 hrs is out of reach for you? Get real and come west and I will show you the feet of those coyotes and the vast grounds and the larger home ranges of coyotes out west compared to your red fox and coyotes of the East.
What it comes down to is can they be held with minimal discomfort and the outcome is still the same "DEATH". Don't give me the holier than thou process because it won't cut it. I can prove to you any coyote can go 3 days without food or water in fall/winter and survive unless really stressed from injury,disease or malnutrition, or extreme elements, if all or any of the above are met they can be dead on a 24 hr check as I have seen this too! So keep it for the anti sentiment crowd PLEASE!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Mar 10, 2006 21:13:02 GMT -6
Coldsteel NO we don't have 1/30th of the domestic problems you guys back east have. Most free roaming dogs are either shot or die from the elements out west, they can not survive most winters if left along side a road ditch and no help from others.
I live were people own 1,000's of acres and get to some of it once a month or so, outside of livestock needs. WE can run 72 hrs because we don't have near the issues you deal with and I was born and raised trapping the midwest, I had domestics but still nothing I'm sure like you encounter in NC or other Eastern states, but because it maybe hard for some to fathom we don't need nor want 24 hr check laws as it is counter productive in areas of high coyote pressure.
Our coyotes for the most part know human voices or pickup trucks mean nothing good and the less you can be bouncing around in their home range the more productive you will be for sure. They not only smell, but see and hear dangers as well.
I live in a sparsly populated area and no need to go through my line each and everyday, the reason to run high quality equipment and have longer checks.
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Post by Wiley on Mar 11, 2006 5:52:34 GMT -6
You nailed it "37". I get a kick out of these hypocrites who claim the high moral ground on animal welfare with their 12 hour trap checks than furnish the live market so those same animals can live the rest of their lives being chased around in pens. LOL! "YUP, SHOR NUFF CARE MORE THAN WE DO DON'T THEY? " Coyotes will "hole up" (seek shelter) during blizzards and not move for days at times without food and water. Never seen one protest yet. ~SH~
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Post by mike692 on Mar 11, 2006 6:44:55 GMT -6
What I see in this thread is, unfortunately, far too common among outdoorsmen. You can shoot a turkey on the ground, but not a duck, hunting bears with hounds isn't "sporting" and neither is hunting whitetails behind a fence, no matter how large the enclosure. I believe Mr. Nugent referred to this as "cannibalism". All you guys that publically criticize other trappers for taking an animal by a method that's LEGAL in their state aren't doing any of us any good. Throwing other trappers under the bus isn't going to earn you brownie points with anyone.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 11, 2006 6:57:56 GMT -6
pretty hard to "hole up" staked out in the open. to compare a staked coyote in a hi degree of stress and no way to get out of rain or snow or wind to one curled under a cut bank or in thick cover is absurd.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Mar 11, 2006 7:17:29 GMT -6
It would be pretty easy for me to get emotional and mad on this topic.
I'll tell you how I look an extended check.
Tell me what percentage of animals are in a trap for 72 hours on a 72 hour trap check first?
For that to happen they would have to run over there and jump in the trap as you drive away?
I know a lot of you are better trappers than me but I haven't been able to accomplish that with much success.
With cats I divide the time period into night and day periods rather than hours.
If we take the 72 hour scenario there are three nights involved.
So take out somewhere between 4-8 hours as we wait for the first night.
Then take out 4-8 hours for the day that you check.
That leaves 56-64 hours maximum that an animal caught the first night would be in the trap.
I'm not a statistician but I would suspect if all the variables are taken out that the chances of an animal being caught on the second night would be roughly twice as many as the first and three times as many on the third.
I'm sure that will get challenged but hopefully I've made my point that a 72 hour check does not equate to every animal spending 72 hours in the trap.
Maybe some mathematician could work out the compounding probability problem.
Anyway linear thought leads me in the direction that maybe 15% or so spend 56-64 hours in the trap 30% or so 32-40 and 70-100% spend 8-16 hours in the trap.
I would like to have someone that has a good mathematical mind give me some feedback on the my hypothesis here.
I know it can be done statistically.
Anyway my point is that in my opinion 75-100% of the animals caught on a 72 hour trap check spend no more time caught as those on a 24 hour trap check.
I'm talking cats in my part of the country. I know this is a coyote forum but I think what I've said here is something good to chew on.
I would like to hear criticism of my theory so I can develop it further for use against the anti's.
One more point. I'd like to hear how a coyote or a cat can die a natural death where he will suffer less than 56-64 hours.
So why does it matter if you take the politics and emotions out of the discussion.
Joel
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Post by k9 on Mar 11, 2006 8:08:13 GMT -6
I would like to see a 48 hour check here in Iowa. I would change some of my methods if it were the law.
I would gang set more aggressively on top locations.
Many of my traps are modified, the rest are a work in progress. If given 48 hours all would be tricked out before next fall.
Most of the dogs I would catch that people actually care about, have been removed from my traps before I get there on the 24 hour check anyway.
I would expect some theft, but that happens anyway.
"Theft Happens"
Would be a good bumper sticker.
"Got theft?"
Would be another. I hate theft, but it is a fact of life.
I have gone to Wyoming trapping and it is very different when you are used to a 24 hour check. Checking traps every day is a waste of gas and time, the animal is treated well if the trapper knows what he is doing.
Compare 48 hours, or even a 3 day check, to weeks of mange, or any other disease that canines get, and the fact is that mother nature is far more harsh than any trapper.
Give me a 48 hour check and I will take advantage of it.
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flea
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 19
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Post by flea on Mar 11, 2006 9:08:22 GMT -6
I agree with you Joel, I don't think many cats are caught on the first day and spend the full 72 hours in the trap. I don't really have many catches to go on but I have never had a coyote that was dead in a trap after I left it for the full 72 hours. Have any of you other western guys found dead ones?
I caught one this year when it was getting -25 during the night that was fine when I got to him. The foot was froze soild but he felt good enough to do a lot of growling and biteing sticks and such.
I haven't caught many dogs, I caught my dads dog twice but thats it. My friends that cat trap catch a sheep dog or two every year and they never seem to have any bad effects. We live in a very rural area, nearest neighbor is six miles away. Most dogs that people own stay where they are supposed to and aren't out running around though the brush, if they do they usually don't last too long.
I can imagine that you fellows back east have a totally different situation. I have no idea what it is like trapping back there since the biggest city I have ever lived in was Twin Falls, ID. while going to collage ( that was pure hell ). I suppose that haveing lots of peoples pets running around and the neighbor folks watching your every move would make trapping a whole new deal, and checking your traps every day would be a good thing. To keep thieves from getting your fur and traps, keep the neighbors for hateing trapping and such.
As for the animals, I don't think it matters to them very much. After all they are animals, if the were more like humans they would be trying to trap us ;D. Either 24 hours or 72 hours after getting caught in a trap everything is pretty much downhill for the animal.
So check your traps when you think it is best but don't expect everyone to follow you lead. It is all the different thinkers that make trapping and life as well alot more interesting. Jake
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 11, 2006 9:25:26 GMT -6
joel, I had an accomplished several hundred coyotes a year ( or more) trapper ride with me one day this year in ks. he is on this forum and a "western" trapper. we set I dunno, 20 new sets and cked maybe 50-60 sets already out one day. that night we did the standard "how many we going to catch tomorrow" routine. he said 3-4 max. I said heck no, 7-8 at least, maybe more. he said no way, none of the sets are out more than 48 hrs, about 1/2 24 and 20 less than 12 hrs. we even bet who bought pizza. next day we had 9 plus a bunch of other lesser animals, 12 hrs later. this is fact. witnessed. perobably 1/3 of the traps had a badger or coyote or cat or coon or skunk in them. thgis was in january in a low population area. no footprints flips or visits I remember that didn`t have the coyote standing there. maybe there was some I forgot, if so, negligable, but the trap still wouldn`t have caught me anything the next day if I didn`t re-set it or take out and remake the ones that did have animals. so had I come by 72 hrs later, at least 1/3 of the animals would have been there about 60 hrs or more.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 11, 2006 9:29:58 GMT -6
p.s., I have frequently caught as high as 30 fox a day fall trapping in wyoming on 24 hr cks of 80 traps- full size foxes like exist in october ,november. denning ( set around den) in the spring, both adults and several pups in 2-3 hrs, yes TWO or THREE HOURS!
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 11, 2006 11:59:26 GMT -6
Dont know if you intended for me to come out of hiding Bob...but it worked...First off lets set a few things straight...I believe it was 7 or 8...Dont remember 9...You failed to mention that your day before and Days I visited last year were not in the 8 or 9 catagory...Im sure you do have days like that, BUT you do the math 75 coyotes this year over 30 to 45 days doesnt average 8 or 9...does it..You also failed too mention that we were 24 to 48 hours BEFORE a weather change as well as previous days of more modest catches...Law of averages was on your side under those circumstances...only you new exact coyote numbers before I arrived...so had a better idea what to expect...also to say a third of your traps had a catch is a little more than a brain fart on your part..you had a few badgers and skunk..1 cat as well..hardly a third..those are the facts...I have to take exception to your use Of NUMBERS in this thread as well as a few others to MAKE A POINT...the problem becomes Bob some or all of those numbers are in question...Those of us that have BEEN around take exception to some of your statistics...I also know what was seen in cages and your use of age classification is a little more than suspect...Use accurate numbers...I must say that EVEN with mange in your coyote factories of kansas you still have excedingly high numbers compared to MOST of the west...Southern kansas is not indicative of a western enviroment in regards to topography or animal concentrations...To some from the midwest and east it might seem that way but to those who LIVE out west I can assure you it is not...ME PERSONALLY I dont care if that coyote sits an hour , a day, a week, a month,or turns back to carbon...DOESNT MATTER...the end result is the same...............................DEAD.............................. that is the intention of setting the trap...ALL TRAPPERS should support the extended checks of those that are in states that are allowed to do such and encourage game agencies that is what trappers want and need...ANIMALS are not people and SHOULD NOT be afforded ANY of the rights of humans.....PERIOD...... The emotionalization of animal WELFARE has gotten us to the point of loss of trapping and certain hunting....Animals deserve NO rights or human privelage...Those that do will lead US ALL to the end of consumptive use....Now Bob...you have trapped a long time and done and been many places in the trapping world...Why then the need to inflate certain aspects of your statistical calculations??? whats left to prove...accurate statistics are much more benefical to those not in the know since your intention is too educate..and you become the target of criticism to those that have also been their done that...something to ponder..
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Mar 11, 2006 12:12:59 GMT -6
Bob I don't doubt that what you said happened.
I notice you talked about traps that were just set and traps that had been out one day.
I a high population I could see checking a canine set that often for the first couple of days.
I don't intentionally trap canines any more however.
I'm trapping cats in short winter days in rough inaccessible country and I'm not superman any more either.
A 24 hour check would be the end of it for most of us out here or we'd just become outlaws.
Do it your way and let me do it my way that's all I ask.
I don't lobby for 72 hour checks in other states.
I have no vested interest in the laws other states have.
Joel
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 11, 2006 12:23:29 GMT -6
....................JOEL........................ we all have an interest in the trapping laws of other states....yours and my laws become eroded with the passing of laws in other states...Many states mimmick laws of other states and pressures of many will use other states laws to influence the change of our western practices...you better care..you border the LEFT coast...and with that the attitudes of the animal rights faction...
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 11, 2006 12:24:51 GMT -6
I have 3 posts total on this thread. none deleted. go read them again. never once did I mention anyone elses ck times, nor even give an opinion on such. my last trip to kansas last jan I had 24 daily cks, not 45, caught 75 coyoters, 24 cats, 14 badgers, 65 coons and 49 skunks, plus a handfull of misc non keepers. the number I caught the day you were with me was 9,( I write the daily catch down every day- I went and looked at my day book!) but even if it was 7 or 8, they were all 12 hrs after the traps were last cked- you can`t deny that- you saw the empty traps and then the full traps 12 hrs later. and I don`t remember the ages, but there were a bunch of nursing home coyotes I`m sure, as the whole trip was top heavy un-naturally on old and scarce coyotes, even a bust you might say, on account of it. I only stated what I did the day you were there, and you saw it! 24 runs is more like 21 after a 900 mile drive before arrival and a 900 mile drive home. so 3 a day avg. but lets get real , much of the time I was targeting cats or other animals than coyotes, so not on an 80 trap COYOTE line either. so bragging- nope- you saw them, inflating- nope , you saw them. just stating to joel I know for a fact 9 coyotes were caught out of some odd 70 or so traps the first 12 hrs and the day I told about I had a witness- you- who I never saids your name, you chose to "come out". this story that if a guy could catch 9 coyotes one day, then they must be thick, then if that is true then the day before or the day after with 1 to 3, then by gawd, they must be scarce as hens teeth. eh? you want to see thick coyotes?, I`ll show you 35 a day in 24 hr cks. then you`ll say they are so thick any fool could do it. so what`s the point?, no one is good unless they are from montana and run once every 7 days ,on the moon where we know there are no coyotes, and he is soooo good, that when there are none he still get half of them. I just sais what I caught in one day when I and you know the traps were last lokkedat 12 hrs before- no more, no less. can`t argue that. 1/3 of the traps full or offtargets, cattle flips?, ok maybe 1/4th, doesn`t change the gist and certainly not an intentional misleading of anyone. you extended ck. guys just have chips on your shoulders to react so vehemently when nothing was even mentioned in regard to extended cks. nothing- at least not by me. a point to ponder thio migfht be, if a dead coyote is the end goal, whynot just spread a little distemper or mange around and save all the miles and fuel and time? end result is the same- dead coyotes!
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Post by Wiley on Mar 11, 2006 12:39:17 GMT -6
Joel,
Your point is very well taken and I have used a similar argument.
You are correct that statistically, on a 72 hour check, there is very few animals in a trap for 72 hours. That is not even debatable.
My math is a little different but similar.
A base would be:
33.33% - 68 - 62 hours. 33.33% - 44 - 38 hours. 33.33% - 20 - 14 hours.
That would be a base if all other things were equal but all things are not equal.
In remote western areas of .5 coyotes per square mile (pre denning population) and reduced non targets and secondary targets, your catch increases as human activity decreases and your catch also increases based on the decoying affect of a coyote in a trap when setting for double and triples.
A more realistic estimate would be:
25% - 68 - 62 hours 35% - 44 - 38 hours 45% - 20 - 14 hours
Good posts flea and Mike 692!
1080,
Thanks for your input.
1080: "I also know what was seen in cages and your use of age classification is a little more than suspect...Use accurate numbers...I must say that EVEN with mange in your coyote factories of kansas you still have excedingly high numbers compared to MOST of the west...Southern kansas is not indicative of a western enviroment in regards to topography or animal concentrations...To some from the midwest and east it might seem that way but to those who LIVE out west I can assure you it is not..."
I rest my case!
BW: "pretty hard to "hole up" staked out in the open. to compare a staked coyote in a hi degree of stress and no way to get out of rain or snow or wind to one curled under a cut bank or in thick cover is absurd."
You missed the point. The point was not the issue of exposure, the point was the issue of food and water. A coyote going without food and water for 3 days is not out of the realm of normal. I have cut open thousands of empty stomachs Bob. Ironically, we find coyotes usually kill sheep every other day or every 3rd day. It's rare for them to kill day after day. What does that tell you?
For you to try to take a high road on animal welfare with your "CAGED COYOTES" that end up being chase in running pens is the ultimate in hypocrisy.
To quote Montgomery Gentry: "You do your thing and I'll do mine".
~SH~
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Mar 11, 2006 14:09:57 GMT -6
1080 you are right about other states, I get that thrown in my face from time to time.
In our legislature I just make the point that in Eastern States which are mostly private land that the trap check can become a more of a function of agreements between the trapper and the landowner than whatever the state law is.
At least that is what I assume.
Bob your point is well taken. You are certainly entitled to your opinion on 24 hour checks. More power to you, sincerely.
Wiley I think you have to factor in that the animals caught the first day will be there on the second and so on.
Got to go to work for a bit. Later.
Joel
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 11, 2006 14:18:55 GMT -6
No intention of throwing anything in your face...Most of us out west and as trappers will suffice with a handshake...Unfortunatly most prefer the written word and when that written word becomes LAW they have once again shoved it up our ass...We can choose to obey or not but have no recourse when done otherwise and can be proven to have done such..A rope of our own tying if not careful...The written word..
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Post by Wiley on Mar 11, 2006 14:44:38 GMT -6
Joel: "Wiley I think you have to factor in that the animals caught the first day will be there on the second and so on."
I did!
25% of the coyotes in a 72 hour check will be in for 62 - 68 hours.
35% of the coyotes in a 72 hour check will be in for 38 - 44 hours.
45% of the coyotes in a 72 hour check will be in for 14 - 20 hours.
That is the estimated percentage of the total coyotes taken in a 72 hour trap check that would fall into each category. Sorry if I did not explain it very well.
~SH~
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