|
Post by robertw on Apr 15, 2007 8:25:59 GMT -6
#1) Darcy Alkerton developed this method then shared it with me in the fall of 99. He deserves the credit for it. On another thread on this forum he has given his permission for sharing it with you.
I have always called it "The Canadian Method".
Avoiding otters in any 330 sized conibear can easily be done by adding a SECOND trigger assembly to the trap. I prefer the tension adjustable "two-way" triggers made by "Species Specific". Both trigger assemblies are engaged when the trap is set. The triggers are set in the parallel down positions on opposite sides of the trap. It is best if the triggers are actually with in 1" of the side of the trap (You must actually check for fired triggers on the trap daily.) I also do adjust the triggers to where there is some tension on them but not excessively stiff.
Most beaver when caught with a two trigger trap are sandwiched in the trap (caught by both jaws), occasionally though two year old beaver will be hip caught.
I have used this method in some very high otter population areas / channels and to date have had 100% success in avoiding otters. Just remember to make this method work, you must check for fired triggers every day.
For those of you that want to try this method, it is important that both trigger assemblies be from the same manufacturer so that they are the same length and have tension on them (from the trap) when set. I hope this helps those of you that have been having otter avoidance problems.
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 15, 2007 9:04:07 GMT -6
This method will help no doubt about it but 100% avoidance no way possible even checking daily.We all have seen otter traveling in pairs or even 4 or 6 at a time.I have a good otter population myself and have caught numerous doubles as well as a dozen triples and even 4 quadrupals.We all know setting conibears in creeks and beaver channels and dam crossovers are high risk otter sets.Like I said its a very good method to save the first otter coming through but no way will it save the second thanks for the tip anyway
|
|
|
Post by wcollinge2000 on Apr 15, 2007 9:21:41 GMT -6
hip caught beaver are a very small price to pay for a renewable resource. thanks I understand seems to me that it would work . now if you had a pic . I can do mine as i really don't need a pic but it would serve well in the archives i am sure. And appreciated by all to read . I will try myself when I have some time to work on the 330 and I am thinking that there could be a way to make this none species specific during the time otter is open so one trap can be used for both. Unless that has been taken into consideration. easy idea but some times you have to get out of the box to think of things.Thanks robertw and Darcy. I can see that this could be implemented in rules at some time in the future. there might be some resistance but if it can be made to not be species specific when both seasons are open it would be good. This is also a good tool to ensure the population of beaver survives for the next culling season.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Apr 15, 2007 9:41:49 GMT -6
I'd think that you would need an awful lot of otter to consistently get doubles on a daily check.
In the otter program (I say this not to brag in any way, cause there is nothing to brag about, but only to qualify the intensity in which we trapped otters) we gang set very heavily around sign, and in a total of 38 otter taken, only one was a double.
Our otter population is low- compared to MO where Mike F, one of our trappers, often caught 30+ otter a week in their otter study program.
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 15, 2007 9:55:43 GMT -6
Tman I am not trying to shoot down his theory I think its a good method I really do but no way total avoidance can't speak for Beav,or Winston ,or Bud Jenkins (who done a 111 last year and had 14 in one check) but I get doubles and right many at that.Lets forget doubles for a minute then what happens when a otter comes through at 8 pm and sets off the first trigger and then sometime during the night another comes through?Protects the first otter but shame on the second
|
|
|
Post by robertw on Apr 15, 2007 10:21:24 GMT -6
Cold Steel, Does the potential exist for the second otter to be caught, yes! Does it happen on a regular basis or even part of the time, not yet.
Otter are particularly hard to reliably catch in 330 sized conibears with a "side parallel trigger configuration, when it is a "two-way" trigger, even harder. The addition of the second "two-way" trigger on the opposite side makes the odds tremendously high against catching an otter!
Three years ago I witnessed 5 (FIVE) otter (an entire family group) pass through 2 of these 330 conibears set up this way. Granted three of these otters were smaller young of the year otter but.....None of them fired the traps, both traps did each have one trigger fired though.
Trappnman, In good otter country triples are not un-heard of. I have actually even caught one quadruple in my lifetime (3 females and 1 male). These were taken on a 100 acre lake at a bank den / beaver lodge complex, four 330s held four otter in one check. edited for grammar and spelling.
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 15, 2007 11:56:38 GMT -6
Robert I agree it wouldn't happen on a regular basis and in no way was I trying to argue with you.My only point was it could happen.I have a big otter around here and catch lots over 25 lbs and have a few to break 30 lb each year my largest ever was 36 lb.A 25 lb otter takes up a lot of space in a 330 (which is the main reason I hate a 220 otter trapping).I admit I have never tried this method and I should do so as well as other ADC trappers and state trappers out there because as you have pointed out a lot of those otter will be missed especially that pregnant female carrying young or having them swimming with her doing the off season.
|
|
|
Post by wcollinge2000 on Apr 15, 2007 12:03:02 GMT -6
I was thinking here not to make it like it is a bad Idea or the such.although it is a great Idea and I will employ it with a good feeling knowing that it will give them a great chance. I have thought this one otter that was caught it was going under a log to where the beaver were feeding . this spot was sort of enclosed so the otter would have had to come out the same place he went in. Now knowing full well it is possible that the otter would by chance go through the same side that it came in (side of trap) but it is also likely for it to hug the other side too. I am just thinking how this could be avoided? I have only came up with one idea and that is to place a guide stick on one side of the opening of the trap this if placed right would make the otter hug the side it went in this stick would not have to be very sturdy but enough so the otter senses that it is easier to go through the same side of the trap he entered. Beaver on the other hand are larger bodied and going through would set off the trap either way. it is not totally fool proof the two triggers but it is totally a better method than one. incidental catches would be reduced . This should be employed in areas of concern .(two triggers).
Next season I will make some sets for beaver that will mimic how I caught them . If there is a season on otter I will try one at a location that could be a test . like exactly where otter are crossing . Think I will use a game cam if I remember that far off..
this method is good but there is always going to be situations that will arise that some one will argue it is not 100% . I would say it is 100% better than what the DNR recommend at the moment. thanks again for divulging this info.
I like it and will use it thats for sure.
|
|
|
Post by thorsmightyhammer on Apr 15, 2007 12:16:18 GMT -6
In the otter program (I say this not to brag in any way, cause there is nothing to brag about, but only to qualify the intensity in which we trapped otters) we gang set very heavily around sign, and in a total of 38 otter taken, only one was a double.
Could be your methods Steve or else a very limited population.
I take double regularly and even had a triple once.
I dont do it every year but thats what a four limit will do to you.
I wouldnt be a stretch for me to believe on a 72 hour run with conibears in a high otter area doubles would be more than common.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Apr 15, 2007 18:34:59 GMT -6
else a very limited population.
of course, thats exactly what it was-
on a 24 hour run-
|
|
|
Post by stranger on Apr 15, 2007 23:14:23 GMT -6
I do value this gents opinion, and it is not a bad idea, I have not tried it, but I have observed otter playing and trapped quite a bit for beaver and otter. I have caught too many beaver and otter combinations in gang set locations for this method to be rated at such a high percentage. To explain my own logic. Say an otter does pass thru and only throws one trigger assembly. If another is right behind him and bumps the other sides trigger, well, snap goes the trap and then I have an unwanted otter. Again I have had 3 and 4 traps full on several occasions within 20 feet of one another on the same night, very slim chance of not catching an incidental in this type situation with a coni and a channel set, I employ other methods and different type traps. And to add to Robert W's comment on the side trigger, well ever wonder why people make some of those wierd catches on otter, from my own observation it is a side strike a lot of the time. I trap a lot of rocky bottoms and with some of the stabalizers I make I can often see where the trap was canted from a side contact as it fired. Straight positioning with the channel. I've seen a few otter play and when they get to certain kinds of spots they just like to pick on one another as they swim in pairs, especially the younger ones. The lead otter will turn slightly to bite at the aggressor in play. These canted catches normally lead to a double a little further down.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Apr 16, 2007 6:18:35 GMT -6
if you have that many otter- why even worry aobut trying not to catch them- as you point out- if your are getting triples and quadruples on 24 hour check, you got so many otter, throw them in a ditch if you don't want to skin them for $40-60.
most people worrying about otter avoidance, are doing so in small population areas.
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 16, 2007 6:35:55 GMT -6
I don't understand your point on that post I haven't said a thing about price all anyone was trying to say is doubles do exist and its not rare.If you boys caught 38 that sounds good to me and its damn good where your other buddy caught 30 in a week and if he didn't double up some its because he wasen't setting but one trap or very few traps at each location
|
|
|
Post by titan69 on Apr 16, 2007 6:56:39 GMT -6
I bet this would work awesome, BUT NY State has set regulations on our 330's. I'm not to happy with it either, it has turned a 330 into a trap that now does NOT do what it is designed for. Many many times I have come upon beaver that are still alive in the 330. Not to mention MANY hip caught beaver.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Apr 16, 2007 7:24:06 GMT -6
the point is this- we want otter avoidance HERE, because we don't have a season and other areas want otter avoidance because they have small bag limits.
so it otter are unwanted in areas where 2, 3,4 a night are common, then the only reason for avoidance would be not worth skinning, wouldn't it be?
thus my comment if not worth skinning, toss on the bank cause if they are that common, you are going to catch them.
in any case the price isn't the point- the point is- that if you have otter to the tune where you are consistently taking multiples at a location on a 24 hour check- you aren't GOING TO eliminate your otter incidentral catch if you are trying to catch beaver OR mink and coon. I took 2 otter in mink sets this year.
Darcy's method seems to eliminate a lot of them- and thats all you can do.
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 16, 2007 7:45:32 GMT -6
"The only reason for avoidance would be not worth skinning wouldn't it be?NOPE!A bunch of trappers around here do ADC work year round now who wants to catch unprime pelts or pregnant females or young otter.We have state trappers around here and just about all they set is conibears and a lot on dam crossovers at that.A 330 conibear is a killing machine simple as that and should be used with caution where otter are present.I don't care what you do with any trigger a 25 to 30 lb otter is gonna fill up a 330 pretty darn good.Remember Tman,I was jumped on about this subject pretty hard and was told this method was a 100% effective even in high otter populations .Like I said I have not tried this method and yes its a good one and it will save some otter but it all boils down to what happens to that second otter when he comes through doesn't it?
|
|
|
Post by shagnasty on Apr 16, 2007 10:32:53 GMT -6
tony is telling it like it is. ive doubled, tripled, and quadrupled before too. everytime wish i had more traps set too. had beaver layed up beside multiple otter, sometimes only a certain number of sets can be made at point of access, etc., but anyways that trigger system would probably be a good PR thing for states that have low otter numbers, but i have caught otter that completely filled a 330, heads the size of cantelopes, etc. im sure it will help but a big otter fills a 330.
|
|
|
Post by robertw on Apr 16, 2007 13:01:48 GMT -6
Shag, I don't care how big your otter are, a two-way trigger witht he tension tightened up a little set in "parallel" down position off to one side will miss a VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF OTTER. Several years ago NY. state DNR did extensive testing proving this trigger positioning was the least likely to capture an otter.
When you go to a TWO-WAY TRIGGER, add some tension and SECOND TRIGGER I guaruntee you are going to miss a high percentage of the BIG #36+ otter.
Don't take my word for this guys. Do some of your own testing. All of you have some long narrow chanels where you can set up multiple 330s. Set a "Canadian Modified" 330 at each end of one of these chanells and your good otter killing 330s with your FOUR-WAY triggers some where between the modified 330s and watch and see for yourself which traps catch the otter.
This isn't something that was just "thought up" last week! Some of us have been doing this for years and have had EXTREMELY good success doing it!
|
|
|
Post by ColdSteel on Apr 16, 2007 13:27:21 GMT -6
Robert I have read enough of your post and can tell you are a good trapper with a lot of knowledge and I will say,this is a good method for saving some otter.But,go back and read your own post about the otters swimming through and tripping the traps plus you also said you had to check them daily to reset thrown triggers.If he throws one then why can't the other be thrown?I do think this is a good procedure for states without a season and that have limited harvest.I even went out in the shed and set 2 up this way ;D.Even sliding the trigger over a 1" you still have a 9" opening for that otter to hit and although I can't prove it becauseI have never used this method I think some are gonna hit a trigger in a 9inch opening
|
|
|
Post by robertw on Apr 16, 2007 13:48:05 GMT -6
ColdSteel, I check my triggers daily because I am conscientious and carefull.
Yes, I have had "one" trigger fired without having had the trap fired on Many occasions. Is the method fool proof, probably not, accidents do happen. For me this method is as close as humanly possible to being fool proof.
Witnessing a whole family group of otter (5 head) pass through two of these modified 330s was quite a sight to see! I have felt very comfortable using this method for several years and, it works (at least for me).
For those of you interested....This method has also tremendously reduced my turtle catch when doing ADC work during the summer months.
|
|