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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 24, 2006 19:17:34 GMT -6
But on most small streams they seem to stick to the center for the largest part is the way I see it. Please continue...... I think that is why I had fair success with BEs for Beaver in the bogs, they swan around the outer edge of the bog often, those protrusions they would hug going by, occasionally you would take an otter too, I believe the Beaver were just cruising, the Otter I think were hunting.
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Post by BK on Jul 24, 2006 20:33:08 GMT -6
Steve, I feel otter can run up the gut of a smaller stream and and catch fish when they turn back down stream. Sure they will cut corners too, but not like a mink that might hope to get the drop on a minnow, or perhaps pin it to the bank. Otter are much stronger and faster swimmers than mink.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 25, 2006 1:59:40 GMT -6
Beav, I do most of my intentional otter trapping on the wolf river,north of the reservation.It's pretty fast water.I have found where little springs that feed the river are magnets for otter and beaver.Where these springs enter theres like little pools or eddy's,and on the down stream side of where the springs enter the river,the banks are usually cut under and these cut unders are deadly for both critters,for otter I think it gives them a sneak attack advantage for what ever may be in the little pool,for beaver I think it's just less resistance swimming against the current.All my catches on the river in these spots where going upstream,the depth is around 2-3 feet average,if there is a tree growing on that bank on that spot it seems better.As for beaver on potholes and flooded woods,they seem to hug the bottom along hummocks and old stumps,since my beaver trapping is mainly under ice,I just look for good air bubble trails.Another thing to look for on the river is old down trees,the drift wood looking stuff,theres usually a nice cut under run created by the rivers current and the beaver and otters follow them as well.I think the strong current on the wolf has alot to do with this whole thing.As far as trap setup,I'll take a 330 and run one dead pole through both spring loops,so the trap is on one pole,then run the trap and pole to the bottom and tuck the trap up against the bank in the under cut,wrapping the tie wire around the pole the up onto the bank where I'll tie it securely to another tree or use a rebar.When your done the pole will be vertical and tight to the bank and your trap tucked under the bank.If you ever get in my area,I'll take you show you just what I mean.Over the years the one spot produced 21 otter,I know it doesnt sound like alot,but with the tags we're allowed I think it's pretty good,I always know where to fill mine. ;D
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Post by thebeav2 on Jul 25, 2006 6:03:07 GMT -6
Well explained BC. I'm putting In for a fisher Tag and I will be staying close to where you are, just might take you up on that offer.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 25, 2006 6:51:08 GMT -6
You were talking otter....I thought you were talking mink.....
in some circumstances, I believe mink to do the same.
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Post by blakcoyote on Jul 25, 2006 10:39:20 GMT -6
Well explained BC. I'm putting In for a fisher Tag and I will be staying close to where you are, just might take you up on that offer. Sounds good,just give me a holler. I dont trap for mink much,I ran a small line for mink once for a week and only caught nine,all in pocket sets and blind sets.Now I might throw in a mink set with a skunked up canine trap here and there just to get my trap cleaned up a bit.I did catch a mink in a 330 on the hips once,that was set under ice in a run coming from a beaver bank den,which I thought was unuasual,I've caught incidental rats lots of times that way,but never thought I'd get a mink that way.
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Post by seldom on Jul 26, 2006 20:02:43 GMT -6
For the past three seasons I’ve trapped mink for a Michigan State University Toxicology Project on three, large local river systems. By large, I mean that they would average 60yds wide. Not only did my portion of the Project involve actually trapping a quota of mink but also performing habitat indexing, and population density studies as well along 50+ miles of river system. With that being said, all of my trapping procedures had to be submitted to an oversight committee (made up of lawyers, doctors, ministers, etc.) for approval. I was pretty much forced to use BE exclusively, especially on the river that was deemed the source of a specific dioxin. Using the term “forced” has to do with directives requiring a quick and humane dispatch, the sample needed to be hidden from both predator and human view (each mink sample has a $ value of close to $2000 ea). This river has a series of hydroelectric dams upstream whereby the water level fluctuates 2’-3’ every 24 hrs year-round, more depending on precipitation. Miles of riverbank is sparsely vegetated (long grassy growth) with the average bank height at low-flood varying between 3’ and 10’. So as far as water depth at low-flood, commonsense dictates you use set locations that are within gauntlet length. J Banks are mostly clay, moderately heavey with cobble rock and tree roots. The river current is relatively slow during low-flood but increases substanially during the gage-height swing. IMO, the BE is made for this type of set application and it’s use has enlightened me as to what needs to be addressed for the BE to work consistently, at least IN MY LOCAL. Some of the things I found that worked for me but may differ from anybody else’s experiences or observations. Please remember, I was being paid to produce a valuable product (mink sample) under the conditions described which should be determined as “at the best of conditions” 1. I found the best time to scout BE locations was during summer drought conditions when “true” BE locations could be determined. There are a lot of locations that “look like” BE locations but aren’t. These rivers produce no side pocket eddies, as the banks are quite straight so much of my focus was on root balls. 2. I used 110’s in two configurations. (a) A 3/8”x10’ rerod stake replaced the outside rivet allowing for the 110 to be used in the horizontal position. (b) A 3/8”x 4” x8” bar iron with a piece of vinyl tubing as a trap holder (similar to the tie plate) 3. Leaves (cottonwood/maple/ash) were basically a non-issue for me by 11/1. 4. V or circle trigger configuration was a non-issue. 5. Though muskrat prey was readily available in the vicinity of many of my BE locations, necropsies proved far more fish was being eaten then mammal. 6. There has to be a specific REASON for the mink to use a BE location and in my case, a specific TIME OF DAY during which to use it. 7. 90% of my samples were male 8. Though not relative to the question, once one or more mink is taken from a BE location and ALL record able conditions remain constant one year to the next, more often then not, no other mink would take over the territory. This is determined to be caused simply due to low population densities. 9. The USGS Real-Time Water Recording website was probably my most valuable tool. 10. I use pretty much the same thought process on my fur lines, which are creeks, beaver flowages, and ditches. On my fur-lines with above-freezing temperatures, I prefer to use the “resting set” with footholds but won’t hesitate to use the BE if I’ve got a location that’s better suited for one. There’s a lot I’ve learned about mink and the use of BE’s during this project that would require far more time to type then I want to. J Again I’ll state, these are only MY observations and MY finding and they may differ greatly from somebody else’s in another part of the country. [img src="[/img] www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/3043/medium/Thanksgivingday_doubleII.jpg"] Notice the shelf ice as the river is heading for low-flood. I found it advantagous to know about what time of the 24hr period the mink were using the BE's depending on where the river depth was by the USGS recordings. You can learn what makes a BE location and set two traps and pick up a double or set 12 or more traps and miss them all!.
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Post by fishadict on Jul 26, 2006 22:04:44 GMT -6
Seldom - At what water flows do mink movements peak in BE sets? - per #9 in your list.
fa
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 5:41:11 GMT -6
By using the USGS data and then being on the river to observe mink sign in relation to the receding water depth I figured mink using the BE locations would start around 5am. Because of this observation I also figured the reason had to do with water depth and heaviness of flow was a deterrent to using the water up until around that time. Under normal conditions low-flood was around 12:00pm and would last only an hour or two before discharge and power generation would start the cycle would be repeated.
Day in and day out, very little activity was observed much above the 5am water mark under normal conditions. There is no such thing as "old sign" with the river rising and falling acting like a big eraser.
I should also mention that although I headed up the mink study, I work with the grad students year round on the rivers helping them with a multitude of other wildlife studies thereby affording me the opportunity and access to make constant mink observations.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2006 6:11:23 GMT -6
Good info Seldom. I am curious about the numbers of mink taken. I ask this only because I find it odd, once a mink was taken, no more from that set.
I don't use a lot of BE sets....maybe have out 15, maybe 20 tops- but have found that if I "find" a good set, it usually produces multiple mink.
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 7:25:50 GMT -6
Because of the sensitivity of this project I can give you what our quotas were. The main "river-of-research" that is the focus of the Project I was given double-digits quotas as well as the "rivers-of-study" (those tributaries above the source of dioxin). This was not an "opened-ended" sample gathering but a sufficient number of animals had to be harvested in order to quantify the data.
I have watched this forum and others for a number of years and it seems folks think there is a never ending supply of mink. This may be true on THEIR waterways but not on ones in the Project. Nor have my observation been different on my fur lines. In addition, little is left to subjectiveness in a scientific study by doing a lot of Habitat Indexing (a scientific method(s) used to determine mink habitat) and track studies which encompasses the entire river length.
During the three years I did the study ALL observations and conditions were documented so if any variable changed, I knew it had changed and by how much. Aside from that, few if any changes actually occur meaning food sources, habitat, etc. that would impact mink populations from one year to the next.
I have documentation showing that set locations that were productive the previous year are barren of mink the next. In fact so much so that a dozen BE locations that produced single or multiple mink one year never caught a mink the next nor was any mink sign observed! I found this fascinating and comforting that my subject observations on my fur lines (same water basin) were correct. Set locations were spaced along the river in such a manner as to determine territories and overlaps if possible. By setting up in between a previous years layout would immediately produce mink as well as newly opened grids downstream.
Again I'd like to stress that these are MY findings in MY local (part of my state) and should not be taken as the same 30 miles away from this valley because I don't believe it is. Basicly I proved some of what are considered normal preceptions for trapping mink to be true but other ideas or preceptions that are talked about in a common way, no. One size does not fit all!!!
Also, there were no other trappers (rats or mink) observed except one beaver trapper during the three years on the "river-of-research". I've lived here all my 59 years and it's a known fact that the river conditions are severe to the degree trappers avoid it and trap the small tributaries.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2006 8:04:17 GMT -6
I believe there is a never ending supply of all animals if managed wisely. Thats why its a renewable resource.
Now, I don't trap rivers, I trap the streams going to the rivers- and on those streams, you can bet the farm on the number of mink taken each year...cause its about the same year after year. AND, a choice location is a choice location until it is gone.
My findings aren't necesarily different than your observations, just different habitat.
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 8:49:51 GMT -6
Exactly Tman, habitat plays a huge roll when it comes to population densities and science has proven that to be so (Habitat Indexing). What I've observed is a decided slowness to take over a trapped mink's territory by others.
I'll go on to say though, that the river observations absolutely do coincide with my fur lines which do have appropriate and adequate habitat. IMHO and my experiences, just because it looks like there should be an abundance of mink (a steady, sustainable stream throughout trapping season) doesn't mean there are until after the spring shuffle. That's what intimate knowledge of each trappers territory is suppose to afford us, our ability to know.
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Post by BK on Jul 27, 2006 13:00:21 GMT -6
Seldom I find this to be interesting stuff, yet can't seem draw any conclusions from it. Things I have noticed here is we have few frogs left, I feel this has had an impact on our mink population. Years back when I would see a mink while trout fishing many of them had a frog in their mouth. Areas I see where a coon has come to the water to die the mink catch is never good. And as I've stated before 12 years ago I caught 3 muskrats for every mink I caught in BE sets, today it's almost 3 mink for every muskrat. PS I trust you didn't get to skin the mink in the project? ;D
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Post by thebeav2 on Jul 27, 2006 14:31:37 GMT -6
Great Info. Is the study trapping done during the season or the off season?
Gary
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 14:33:03 GMT -6
Hi BK, I haven't talked in depth with the the student crew leader that's heading up the frog sampling study but there's apparently enough of the different frog species that sample collections aren't negatively impacted. All sampling of any animal specie has to be taken off either the river proper or floodplain. LOL that's what you get for trusting! One of my key job responsibilities was to conduct skinning training sessions with all of the pre & post grads that want to do more then just watch. Usually one rat was enough to suffice but I had a couple of young women skin a couple rats along with a coon. Very comical with the rats as anybody who has skinned a rat can testify to ;D! Nobody wanted to skin any of the mink because the professor wanted to use them don't ya know, so I skinned them. Once in a while when showing the ankle worms to the students I'd nick a gland just to freshen the air a little ;D I love to put up mink so I hated to see those nice pelts frozen and not on my boards. All kidding aside, the sample processing procedures were pretty in depth and time consuming from the moment the trap was removed from the bank in the field until the carcass was frozen. Lots & lots of documentation and washing skinning tools and aluminum foil with hexane and acetone
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 14:52:07 GMT -6
Gary, you asked about whether or not we started early or ran during the regular season?
Yes, we ran the study during the regular seasons. We had the required permits but I decided not to trap early due to the possiblility of my encroachment into other trappers territory. These rivers are not part of my fur lines so I had to feel it out with the property owners as to who else could be trapping around my selected set locations. Most of our sampling area is on private property and even when having been given permission by a participating landowner it wasn't ethical to me. Fair is fair and I didn't need the upper hand.
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Post by fishadict on Jul 27, 2006 17:37:39 GMT -6
Seldom - Thank you, but I was hoping you would say catches were highest at high flow ( when blind sets are out of commission - LOL). Does Michigan request run of the river flows or is peaking common in your streams with hydros?
I do not understand why you do not get repeat catches in good locations, but catch mink the next year between territories. How long of a stretch of river do you study? How are territories determined? My streams re-populate year to year as Steve suggests, and one would think good habitat (successful locations) would be the first to be re-populated?
fa
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Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2006 17:49:21 GMT -6
Seldom- I'm not doubting a word you say for your area. But its interesting that much of your findings counter my observations on my type of streams. Your point of one size doesn't fit all is very true!
I'm not sure if I believe that mink have a territory. Territory under the definition of having exlusive or semi exclusive use.
I believe that he runs a somewhat regular loop- more so in ice and snow- but that his loop is also regular loops for a lot of other mink.
Even in breeding season, I think they all run about the same. Femaels don't pair bond and both sexes breed multiple times. As long as shes in season, a mink will do what minks do.
Here, if a creek has habitat, and stays open most of the season, it has mink. Pretty much any creek. But I do find that whether you take 6 mink off a creek or one- is knowing what is THE spot on that creek. And I find those spots, produce year after year.
BK- whats your thoguhts o nrepeat catches in BE sets i nyour creeks?
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Post by seldom on Jul 27, 2006 19:33:02 GMT -6
Hi Fishadict, There are some “run-of-the-river” flows in Michigan but this river system isn’t one of them. It has a series of dams with the lower one being a hydroelectric. These dams form large lakes so there is recreation management along with power generation. Also, downstream of the hydroelectric dam is the chemical company that has a deal with the power company to coordinate the dams’ discharge with the company’s discharge of treated effluent.
I’ll try to answer this territory question so that also might shed some light for Steve’s question. The term territory is a word used by the Project team (professor) in order to distinguish set location intervals or sampling intervals or his perception of a minks travel route and corridor within the floodplain. The main river of the system that is the primary focus of the Project is 26 miles long and the entire length is a sample area. The sample areas of the two feeder river tributaries I trapped for sample comparison were 13 miles and 5 miles respectively.
All property along these rivers is privately owned (I spoke with 63 property owners to gain permission to trap for the study) and of course has varying degrees of acceptable/suitable mink habitat proven by performing what is called Habitat Indexing. It’s a scientific method by which it’s determined if the environment within 100m of the river’s edge is suitable for mink hunting, denning, and prey. These readings are taken every 500m along the rivers on property we have access. It’s a very interesting thing to do and the tools used to measure were also interesting.
As I was on or along the rivers every day that weather allowed year-round I was continually scouting for mink activity and BE set locations. As I started to find a set location and have access to it, I would move at least ½ mile up or downstream and renew my scouting for another set location and repeat this until I had a line laid out that could be safely handled and would encompass the travel route/loop (territory) of more then one mink. Many times I couldn’t find the set location I wanted close to that 1 km point so maybe there’s be 3 km between set locations. I continually searched for the best-of-the-best’ BE locations and bypassed secondary ones. The secondary ones were logged if they needed to be setup in the future in order to fill the sample quota.
It was some of these secondary ones that allowed me to compare one year to the previous.
We’d filled the quota the first year on the main river but the grantee was concerned that I’d taken more mink then their people and local sources said was possible/probable so they asked us to repeat the sampling on the same river section I’d trapped the preceding year. I choose 12 of the set locations where I’d made single and multiple catches quickly the previous year. Noting though that I’d observed very little sign throughout the rest of the year at or near those locations. I still was seeing some sign at some of the previous years secondary locations that I had no need to set before so I setup a handful of those. I trapped that section of river until I’d repeated the quota and caught NO mink at the previous years “best-of-the-best”! I filled the quota at the secondaries as you see me with a true double taken on Thanksgiving morning. Two BE’s set, two mink on 2nd check.
If there is one trap we seem to fall into while talking trapping and in this instance mink trapping is that we presume all waterways have suitable mink habitat (prey habitat) and that isn’t the case. Most of the Habitat Suitability Indexing we did showed that the mink habitat was marginal according to other mink habitat studies. On the system we are studying it wasn’t unusual to go 5 km before we’d hit a 500m spot that gave us a reading of acceptable habitat.
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