Coyotes Vs Fox

[trappnman]

One of the "facts" in canine trapping, is that coyotes will kill and run out the fox in an area, so that in a few years, the fox population is low or even nil.

Yet- is this true?
Maybe..I've repeated it often enough...

But...several studies on fox and coyotes collared in the same area- show that for the most part, coyotes ignore fox and really don't seem to go out of their way to harass or bother one.

While they did have an incident of coyotes killing one of their fox- it didn't happen on many, many other interactions- they both just went on their way.

So- maybe its not cause and effect...maybe its just two events......A & B.

A) the fox population started declining

B) coyotes, because of their more adaptable nature, took over that territory.

Comments?

[mmwb (Andrew Parker)]

Studies might have some validity, but I always take them with a very large grain of salt until I can read the oringinal study itself. I expect that there is some variablity. Correlation doesn't always equal causality. I expect in the late winter/spring, when mating is the focus that all of the canines are more aggressive toward other male canines. Lean food years would make a difference as well. In a nutshell I don't know, but have observed in our neck of the woods that where the coyotes are, there are few fox. Where there are plenty of fox, there are few coyotes. Don't blieve its habitat, coyotes appear able to thrive anywhere.

[a1foxhopper]

I would really like to hear Bob and Matt's opinion on this. Trappnman, the study you posted awhile back really goes against what I believed, or was led to believe.

Fox are getting scarcer, and the yote are getting thicker. We got to blame something, it might as well be the coyote! LoL But in all honesty, I have never seen a coyote chase down and kill a fox except for the short chase to the end of my trap chain. Now on the other hand, I have never had a coyote kill a coon , possum or even feral cats that were in my traps.

I also might add that I have only lost 4 fox to coyotes, and none were eaten, only chewed up and killed, so I don't have alot of experience with fox/coyote relations.

[musher]

Large predators, such as coyotes, need alot of food. Predators eat anything that they can safely and easily catch without burning too much energy.

The fox seems to fit the bill with regards to coyote food, especially when other foods are scarce..

I've had wolves eat snared fox but I've never seen where a wolf hunted a fox. I have no doubt they grab one whenever the opportunity presents itself.

[bobwendt]

this will be short as I have to leave. I think that study is baloney. I have tracked coyotes in the snow and seen them kill fox. West or east the coyote can and will kill every pup he can catch. There are fox left, but only in heavy brush or woods or close to people where coyotes can`t get them. I remember the 70`s and many 1,000 fox years, then came the coyotes, caught 34 fox here in indiana last year, and them all city park types. See it in the west too. Every ranch house has a fox den a few hundred yards from the buildings and then it is 10-20 miles of coyotes over to the next ranch house and fox family. More later, gotta run

[Traveler]

In my area there's no question about it.We've lost 90% of our fox population to coyotes over the last 25 years.Reds were the first to go and by the very nature of greys,they hung on for several more years.Now.....they're all but gone too.


Back at the tail end of our greys,I had, on several occasions,had coyotes to kill greys in my sets. Not just bite them thru the lungs either.I'm talkin' nothin' to skin kill 'em.Sign was there to read too. Not a dog thing and coyotes came by later and left a dropping or two.

The last grey I took was 8 years ago and he was dead when I came up to him.At least this time I was lucky.The coyote had grabed him from the top of his back and bit him thru the lungs four different times.I had something to skin without any serious holes.

I do like to hammer coyotes,but I'll be the first to admit........I miss foxes.

[kevinupp]

Could it be that Coyotes outcompete Fox for food?
Could it be that Coyotes kill fox pups?
Could it be the Coyotes ability to adapt to more human intervention than Fox?

Could it be a combination of the above three things?

[blakcoyote]

Around here our coyote population has taken over.There used to be reds everywhere.I've had reds killed by coyotes in my sets and one grey killed also.I dont know if you want to call it a transition,but about the time I noticed more coyotes,the red fox population around here got hit hard with mange and really took a toll on fox numbers.And I think that the fox were'nt able to re-establish there numbers as easily with a healthy coyote population around.I still catch a few reds,but not like I used to.I also predator call and I would call in atleast 3-4 reds a season,now I havent called in a fox in about 4 years,just coyotes.I do see fox every now and then,but it's usually around the small towns up here,not the farm fields and such I used to see them.So I think alot of factors played a part in this.

[Traveler]

Here's a thought on coyotes and foxes.After talking with hundreds of guys from about 25 different states,the common dominator seems to be feed.The more natural feed there is,the more likely coyotes and foxes will(to some degree) coexist.

In my area ,when coyotes started showing up, natural feed was rabbits,mice,ground roosting birds,groundhogs and the every present bugs,snakes etc. When this natural supply started to dwindle,so did the foxes.I believe that as natural feed slips away,coyotes will be more likely to hammer the foxes.

Today we have very,very few rabbits.Groundhogs are few and far between.Our quail population is at an all time low.Mice are about the same except in areas where the farmers are spraying crops.In this type of place,mice are few and far between too.Coyotes have then started working on deer and turkey.Naturally they catch some,but have not had a serious impact on their numbers.I've been watching deer out in beans fields late in the day and heard a family of coyotes cut loose with their howling across the creek.Every deers' head comes up and they lock in on the location of the howling.Without fail,they will all leave the fields.


Do coyotes have an impact?.........OH YEA !!!!

[gcs]

The adults can probably hang on some depending on conditions, for awhile, but if the pups are mostly taken, then it should be over in a few years.

At my hunting camp, the cottontails are few,the snowshoe hares are gone,grouse are rarely seen, the only thing left are deer and turkeys. This is all since the coyotes took over,

[trappnman]

I'm not saying coyotes don't compete for food in some areas- of course they do.

and I am not saying that fox aren't dwindling and coyotes aren't booming- they are.

But- have never seen in snow where coyotes hunted a fox. Not saying it never happens, but a lot of my winter creeks contain both foxes and coyotes...

btw- I had several coon over the years killed by cooytes.

I even had farmers tell me..must have a coyote- the've been yelping all night by your set...and get down there and a dead coon- not eaten, but dead.

Bob- I don't think the study is balony at all...in fact, it was several studies and I believe S Craig might have been involved in one? (correct me if I am wrong) buti n any case, the study concluded that yes, a coyote WILL kill an occasional fox, but at least in these studies, did not go out of the way to do so. There were several recorded viewed encounters and the fox/ coyote simply went around each other.

I have no doubt competion for food is #1.

Remember also- the farming practices and habitat have changes quite a bit in most cases. Drive through Indiana, Illinois, Ohio, etc-- and field after field... 3,4, 500 acres or more in size all continous...not real condusive to the smaller ranges fox...but not a problem for yotes. No hedgerows, no fallow areas.

So..maybe as kevin points out....cause and effect...but not the one most of us chose.

[vttrapper]

WE have alot of great habitat for fox. The hedge rows, small 10 to 40 acre fields, small wood lots, mice, rabbits, birds ans so on. The coyote is king now and he does kill every fox he can get. I ahve seen it in the winter as well, while nearby there are plenty of rabbit tracks. Around here they are top of the food chain and they kill fox.

frank

[TRay]

I had an incident this spring where I had seen a fox den about 60 yards off of the road, I would drive by it 2-3 times a week somtimes seeing a adult on the den or close by and later the pups as they were getting bigger. One day as I drove by I saw a coyote laying on the den, I turned around and came back and she never even looked up to watch me. After I shot her I walked up to the den and found 3 pups laying about 20 ft away that looked as if she had just bit them once and walked off the mound and dropped them.

From what I have seen during the past several years I a lead to belive that the female coyotes will kill the fox (mostly the pups) during denning season.

I have seen several times in the winter when you can find both coyotes and foxes laying on the same bale pile in the field.

Tim

[bobwendt]

I don`t believe feed is a factor, as in ks. where I trap I have never caught a fox in 8 years, while taking over 1,000 coyotes- and the prey base is phenominal, like measured in several tons / every acre of both jacks, cottontails, kangaroo rats, rice rats and pack rats, let alone quail, deer, turkey and pheasant by the zillions. Everything is fat from cats to coyotes. Still, the only reds are litterally in backyards inside small towns, never in the country. My guestimation is an adult red can USUALLY outdodge a coyote unless several working him, or deep snow type conditions. I noticed here in indiana the last few years we had fox , that our catch ran about 90% old round tooth adults and then went to nothing. My thinking is the coyotes killed the summer pups at will and with no reproduction the few adults gradually sucumbed to natural maladys. My friend greg anderson from central ill. reported the identical fox litter/den story. Even brought lawn chairs in the evening for everyone to watch the red pups frolic. One day there stood a coyote and a dead pup ,and none were ever seen again. In wyoming in dense sheep areas where year `round gunning, trapping , snaring, m44 use , planes and hired gmen have virtually exterminated coyotes over 50-100 mile wide areas , there are red fox thick, enough we would catch over 1,000 every summer. Still no coyotes but finally he mange wiped out the reds, so now many areas devoid of much of anything but badgers and skunks. Jacks are peaking in wyoming now, having started back 4 years ago, and nobody there to eat them now. My take is all these studies are flawed as I bet none tracked pups or dens but only adult fox meeting adult coyotes. My final say, the coyotes have killed them off except where protected by human habitation, i.e. towny fox.

[Dusty]

Don't be overly simplistic about the interactions; it isn't coyote vs. fox in a sterile environment.

There has been a coyote/fox contact zone for a very long time; interaction isn't new to either species.

Lots of things are changeing, from land use to anti-predator behavior by humans. You won't convince me that a few trappers, both Govt and private, are more effective at controlling predators than the well-armed kid on every section was 50 years ago.

These are both very mobile species - the change didn't have to happen in your back yard for you to notice.

Lynx eat trapped lynx all the time; that doesn't mean lynx are "natural enemies" or any other such hogwash of lynx. They _are_ opportunistic (but nowhere near as opportunistic as coyotes). Shrews eat trapped marten; marten eat trapped fox; none of that means anything concerning interactive behavior.

Just because something is changeing now doesn't mean it was stable before you noticed the change; perhaps this has been going on, one way or another, for thousands of years.

Personally, I tend to agree with Bob - humans are affecting the dynamics of all sorts of critters or, more likely, made the changes over the last 50 years and are just now noticing. I'll gladly change my mind in light of more evidence.

[mattjones298]

good post bob wendt.

i also feel they kill the pups. for instance, on a farm i was trapping last fall in a wide flat river vally with a farm road along the river i found a pup male red fox with steam still comming from it that coyotes had killed as they caught him out in the open with no where to go.

this area i live in produced 100`s of fox in the early 80`s and afew scattered yotes. we had about a 60/ 40 mix reds to greys. i have taken more fox in a single day then i caught all season this past year.

in my little corner of the world coyotes killed the red fox out. around here if you want to catch a red fox you better trap in town, as thats the only place we have any to speak of. some friends of mine feel that fox are coming back alittle and so do i, but the mange whacked our yotes back to half there former population in the last 3 years. the fox here have zero mange and i might be wrong but i feel it`s a coyote specific strain or there are no fox around the coyotes. but i`ve not heard of one mangie fox case around this bunch of trappers.

matt

[bobwendt]

I hear that fox coming back story a lot, and they are to a small small extent ,as a few are becoming urban or learning to live in thick cover, thus we catch 20-30 a year where 5 years ago we got 4-5 in a season. Mostly it APPEARS they are coming back as what few fox are here are very visible since they must live right close to humans to survive. Kind of like beavers trying to not be noticed in the city park, EVERYONE knows they are there! BUT, all the guys saying they are coming back are young bucks (relatively) that never saw the 1,000 fox catches of the 50`s-60`s-70`s, a litter raised in every section, 25 fox in a single trap over 6-8 weeks. The leggets and phil brown still have that in md. and sw pa., and guess what , NO COYOTES. Coming back from the brink of extinction to maybe 1% of their historic peaks, not much of a comeback, but at least enough to see we will always have a few. thank goodnees. Unless a new coyote "aids" or somthing of the like comes along (and probably it will eventually), I doubt we will ever see red fox at their historic highs in our lifetime. The world turns, nothing you can do to stop it.

[Planes & Poison]

What about wolves out west? If it ends up (god forbid) that wolves can run rampant in the west and only the Federal/Government employees can kill them, don't you think they'll displace coyotes and thus the foxes may come back?

I've read two studies that say wolves and foxes can coexist, but coyotes/fox and wolves/coyotes cannot. I don't know whether it's true because I have no experience with wolves, but it would seem that if wolves increased in numbers and they killed the coyotes, the foxes could come back?

Any thoughts?

[Dusty]

I have all three on my line.

[BK]

I got all three also, these are my thoughts today,.........
Coyotes and reds don't mix well, coyotes do take over for shure. The reds that remain change their travel paterns and are more difficult to trap, (perhaps because their numbers are few?) Grey fox seem to do well with the coyotes here.........Perhaps because of their temper, or that they climb well? Or because I don't think they get mange as reds and coyotes do.
The wolves,...don't seem to have much impact other than gobbling up coon and bear dogs like crazy.