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Post by Edge on Jul 7, 2004 21:49:22 GMT -6
"the only question is, who has enough money, or the connections to get the DNA testing done? "
There are about a gadjillion ajencies on the tax dollar teat....maybe *they* could be of some assistance?
Hornhuhnter,I highly doubt that any wolf would limit its feeding to a particular prey;I think they will kill what they can.
Edge
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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 7, 2004 21:51:48 GMT -6
"the only question is, who has enough money, or the connections to get the DNA testing done? " There are about a gadjillion ajencies on the tax dollar teat....maybe *they* could be of some assistance? Edge They Could, I guess rather the question should be WOULD they?
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Post by chessiepup on Jul 7, 2004 21:52:57 GMT -6
as has been said before "what does a coyote eat? anything that doesn't eat him first" ;D
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 7, 2004 21:55:59 GMT -6
A truer statement has never been made.
But, thats to our advantage though isn't it ?
Anyone ambitious enough to find out if there have been any studies done on the genetics thing ?
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Post by chessiepup on Jul 7, 2004 22:05:42 GMT -6
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 7, 2004 22:13:36 GMT -6
chessiepup
That was an interesting read. Thanks.
So are we back to saying what about the territorial instincts of coyotes.
Is it just a few that get the wanderlust or are they just expanding terirory looking for food ?
Me thinks it may be a combonation of both ?
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Post by chessiepup on Jul 7, 2004 22:15:37 GMT -6
one more
Is Wile E. part wolf? By DEANA STOKES SULLIVAN, The Telegram
In the 27 years since their arrival, coyotes have been the topic of fear, argument and speculation. Newfoundland wildlife officials plan to add more facts about the genetics and dietary habits of the eastern coyote to the debate before much longer. Among those facts: a possible link between our newest resident and the wolves of Eastern Canada.
The coyote is believed to have first arrived in the province in the spring of 1985 when three animals - initially reported as wolves - were spotted coming ashore on the Port au Port Peninsula after crossing pack ice in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
Fall start
A research program is planned to begin this fall which will include looking at the interactions of coyote and caribou throughout the province and the predation rate on caribou.
Wildlife biologist Mike McGrath, who works in the science division of the Department of Tourism, says hopefully this research will clear up speculation about the impact the animals are having on caribou populations and other wildlife.
The division is planning to hire a graduate student from Memorial University (MUN) to assist with the research.
"There have been some unconfirmed reports of predation on caribou on the Avalon but we haven't had a chance to assess that in any real scientific way," said McGrath. ". We know that they are killing caribou but we have no idea of the magnitude."
McGrath said Newfoundland can't rely on research from other regions because this province is the only place in North America where caribou and coyote populations overlap in the absence of wolves.
In Nova Scotia, the coyote's primary prey are snowshoe hares and white-tailed deer. There's speculation that since Newfoundland doesn't have the deer, the coyotes are replacing them in their diet with caribou.
"But we have no idea if that's happening or what magnitude that this is happening," said McGrath.
Wildlife officials also hope to learn more about the genetics of the coyote in Newfoundland.
There is a belief that the breed here - the eastern coyote, scientifically known as canis latrans - are a hybrid or cross between coyote and wolf.
Robert Chambers, emeritus professor of wildlife ecology who has been studying coyotes in New York for more than 30 years, wrote an article in the New York State Conservationist in August 2000, explaining the animal's origins.
Chambers noted that Peter Gaskin, a scientist with Jefferson Community College, analyzed skull measurements of a series of eastern coyotes collected in New York in the 1930s and the late 1960s and found that the majority were intermediate between western coyotes and wolves, with a few suggesting ancestry with dogs.
Chambers said similar claims were made by Ontario biologists of the presence of wolf-coyote hybrids from the Frontenac region.
Through DNA analysis, geneticists reported in 1990 that coyotes and wolves had hybridized across southern Ontario, Quebec and New Brunswick.
For that reason, the eastern coyote is often referred to as the "brush wolf."
McGrath said he's aware of these claims and it's possible that the coyote in this province does have wolf ancestry.
"As the coyote moved eastward and hit Ontario and places like that, I think there was some interbreeding with wolves so they are a little larger than the coyotes out west," said McGrath.
"I guess that's the main factor - and they're preying on larger prey."
McGrath said the province is planning on doing some genetics work with MUN, beginning this fall, to further clarify this issue.
He doesn't believe, however, the genetics of the eastern coyote in Newfoundland is dominated by wolf.
"There might be some wolf blood in them, so it's a question that we're trying to resolve. The coyotes in Newfoundland are behaving quite similar to other areas. They're not forming large packs," said McGrath, who doubts that the species will eventually replace the extinct Newfoundland wolf.
Wolves prey on larger animals such as moose, he said, but there's no information to suggest that the coyotes in this province are attacking moose, with the exception of probably ill or weak animals.
Coyotes on the island are normally spotted in pairs, not in packs, said McGrath. The only exception to this is during late summer and early fall when a female might be observed with her pups.
While the province doesn't have any information on the coyote population, McGrath doubts that it's as high as some estimates. Some people have speculated there could be as many as 10,000, but McGrath said, if there were that many, there would be a lot more sightings and reports of people hearing them.
"In Nova Scotia, you won't see a lot of coyotes, but it's more likely you'll hear them (howling) in the nighttime," he said.
Also in high coyote populations, red fox populations decline dramatically and that's also not the case in Newfoundland, said McGrath.
"Our red fox population is quite healthy and robust at this point in time. Usually what happens in other places, the coyote replaces the fox and just by looking at signs and tracks in many areas of the province, they haven't done that yet."
The coyotes here have completed the "range expansion phase of their occupation of Newfoundland," said McGrath, now occupying all habitats.
"Now that they can't disperse any more, the only thing they can do is build up in numbers," he said. "But it remains to be seen at what density they will level out at. Their populations are still increasing."
McGrath expects it will be next spring or summer before results are available from the coyote research.
He said the province has no plan to eliminate the species and - even if it did - more coyotes would likely cross the ice from Nova Scotia and re-establish in Newfoundland.
"We get reports almost every second year of what they say are wolves or coyotes on the sea ice halfway across from North Sydney. So even if we did eliminate them, they would repopulate the island in short order anyhow," said McGrath.
In other regions of North America, he said, literally millions have been spent attempting to eliminate coyotes and all efforts have been failures.
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 7, 2004 22:29:07 GMT -6
Wow chessiepup.
There was a lot of info there. Thanks for going to the trouble to post it for a new guy.
You all probably knew all that before and were being too nice in letting me blabber.
Anyhow, I appreciate the info and you have broadened my knowledge of one of my favorite adversaries.
Thanks.#nosmileys
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Post by chessiepup on Jul 7, 2004 22:35:17 GMT -6
things I know about coyotes: 1)they weren't here before but they are now? 2) they have an uncanny knack for making me feel stupid thats about it
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 7, 2004 22:40:15 GMT -6
I sort of doubt that.
It has been an interesting post.
This site pleases me in that it brings discussions to a whole new level.
Very comfortable.
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Post by Hornhunter on Jul 7, 2004 23:20:32 GMT -6
That was a good report Chessiepup! Give the coyote a few years and lets see where their fox population ends up? Also, He mentions the coyote being a little bit bigger. Last I knew Maine record was 63lbs, but I think that got busted last year, New York has been getting coyotes in the 80+lbs. i'd call that a "little" bit bigger. Next Is a referral to the Red wolf/ coyote and the wolf in Canada. This call is truly wild At 2 a. m. on Wednesday, Aug. 15, it started as a burst of high-pitched yelps, yaps and screeching intermixed with barks and growls and, on the rare occasion, a sustained howl. It all sounded like something being tortured just outside my bedroom window. I awoke immediately, the screened window letting in the noisy chaos that actually was taking place in a nearby clearing. I knew, from past experience, the sounds were from coyotes, a routine that happens every August. Coyotes, like red and gray wolves, bear their young in the spring, and, by late summer, these youngsters are old enough to travel with the family unit. In the case of coyotes, the unit howls seemingly for bonding, whereas wolves do so to communicate with their young. While some grown wolves hunt, the younger ones are left near an open area like a field or bog so they call back and forth with the adults. A week earlier, 75 miles to the north, a group of college students and I heard another variation of howling in the Papineau-Labelle Wildlife Reserve in southern Quebec. Those howls were more sustained, but at times as high-pitched as the coyotes I heard a week later. These were the howls of red wolves, a species extirpated from the southern United States, but fairly common in southern Ontario and Quebec. Minnesota, Michigan and Wisconsin wolves, once thought of as gray wolves, have been genetically linked to red wolves. Red wolves are smaller than grays, and their northern range follows the northern extent of white-tailed deer. The best description of the howls we heard in Papineau-LaBelle come from naturalist writer Edward Hoagland in his book "Red Wolves and Black Bears." Hoagland, a Vermont resident, writes: "Red wolves howl in a higher, less emotive pitch than gray wolves and don’t blend with each other quite as stylishly, though they do employ more nuances and personality than a coyote family’s gabble." Hoagland, who researched some of the last known red wolves in the southern United States, also compared their calls to those of coyotes. He writes, "A coyote’s howl sounds hysterical, amateurish by comparison, chopped and frantic, almost like barnyard cackling." But the coyotes Hoagland was describing in his 1972 book were the small, western variety. Since then, geneticists have found that eastern coyotes have varying degrees of red-wolf genes, thus accounting for their increased size and, at times, almost wolflike traits of killing deer and beaver and traveling in larger packs than western coyotes. Some of these wolf-coyote mixtures, the result of extensive interbreeding in southeastern Canada, are hard to classify. "So, what should a hybrid sound like?" Bob Chambers asked me once. Chambers, professor emeritus at the State University of New York College of Environmental Science and Forestry and an eastern-coyote expert, said, "In all my years of tracking and studying eastern coyotes in the Newcomb area, there were a couple of times when I wasn’t sure exactly what I was hearing — a coyote, , a wolf or a hybrid." Ray Masters, a wildlife technician at SUNY ESF, Newcomb, who has worked extensively with Chambers in the past, joined me on a southern Quebec wolf calling trip in 2000, and we luckily got to hear a couple of packs howl. The next morning, Masters joined the other participants on the porch of the chalet where we had spent the night and announced, "I’ve heard that same howling before — near Newcomb." Masters is not one to exaggerate, so that leads to the question: What is actually out there in northern New York? Judging from the latest research done at the University of Trent in Ontario by geneticists Drs. Bradley White and Paul Wilson, the clear differences once thought to separate red and gray wolves and eastern coyotes don’t exist anymore in a portion of southern Canada and the northeastern United States. In fact, though there are still core areas that are predominately red wolf (called eastern Canadian wolf by the researchers), in peripheral areas there is extensive interbreeding with coyotes going on in southern Ontario and Quebec, and we in northern New York may be getting some of the second or third generation offspring of those unions, so maybe some of the howls I heard in early August weren’t pure coyotes exercising their vocal cords, but members of a wild canid species that is still evolving
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Post by Hornhunter on Jul 7, 2004 23:31:32 GMT -6
Here's another one. i'll try to find the Maine study tomorrow.
A number of Trent undergraduate and graduate students have recently undertaken research using DNA profiles of a range of species in these laboratories. This research has led to the identification of a new species of wolf in Canada. Genetic studies on the wolves located in Algonquin Provincial Park have shown a close affinity to the red wolf of the US and not the gray wolf as it was originally assumed. It has now been proposed that this eastern Canadian wolf be given the separate species designation of Canis lycaon. The eastern coyotes or "Tweed wolves" found in the region have been shown to be hybrids between the western coyotes that reached the area earlier last century and the eastern Canadian wolf
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Post by Hornhunter on Jul 7, 2004 23:42:05 GMT -6
;Dhope I don't overload the site with all the copy and paste!
Wildlife genetics specialist at center of debate over species' origins By PHILIP LEE -- N.B. Telegraph Journal
Is wolf blood running thick through the forests of New Brunswick? A New Brunswick wildlife genetics specialist thinks that is indeed the case and he has drawn this province's population of coyotes, which are larger and more wolf-like than their diminutive western cousins, into the heart of a raging scientific debate over the evolutionary origin of Canadian wolves. The debate has revolved around a population of about 200 wolves in Algonquin Provincial Park, north of Toronto. For many years, the Algonquin wolf was considered to be a mutt, a hybrid of the grey wolf (Canis lupus) and coyote (Canis latrans). However, recent genetic testing on Algonquin wolves has led scientists to suggest that the Algonquin wolves are in fact surviving members of the eastern Canadian wolf species (Canis lycaon), a cousin of the red wolf, which is on the endangered species list in the United States. Paul Wilson, a 31-year-old New Brunswick man who runs the Wildlife and Forensic DNA Laboratory at Trent University, has become a central figure in this debate. The evolutionary model that Mr. Wilson's laboratory has proposed suggests that the New Brunswick coyote, which began appearing here in large numbers in the 1970s, is not a pure coyote at all, but in fact a hybrid of the eastern Canadian wolf and western coyote. When the animals first arrived in New Brunswick, there was a great deal of speculation about what kind of dog-like creatures they were because they were so much larger than western coyotes. One of the most popular theories of the day was that they were hybrids of coyotes and domestic dogs. "Our genetic data suggests that they are hybrid coyote-wolves," Mr. Wilson said. "So the eastern coyote, by definition, according to our genetic data, has wolf genetic material moved into it." Algonquin wolves grow to be 60 to 90 pounds and have a unique salt-and-pepper colouring with red markings behind the ears. New Brunswick coyotes average between 30 and 80 pounds, and some have shown distinctive red markings. New Brunswick coyotes can live on a diet that is 80 per cent deer, while its western cousins, which grow to be about 15 to 30 pounds, eat only small mammals. "The New Brunswick coyote is actually filling a fairly functional role as a top-end predator, similar to a pure eastern wolf," Mr. Wilson said. Mr. Wilson's wolf research began with a request for some simple genetics testing from Dr. John Théberge, a University of Waterloo ecology professor, who with his wife Mary has been studying Algonquin wolves for more than a decade. They were convinced the Algonquin animal was a grey wolf-and-coyote hybrid. "The genetic evidence started to point to the fact that that Algonquin animal was a very different wolf and was very closely related to the red wolf," Mr. Wilson said. "So we put forth a model that suggests this wolf actually evolved differently from the big grey wolf that you might see in the northern reaches of Canada." His model proposes that one to two million years ago there was a common wolf ancestor in North America. Some of these wolves travelled to Europe over the land bridge and evolved there into the grey wolf. Others remained in North America and evolved into the red wolf or eastern Canadian wolf, which about 300,000 years ago spawned the coyote, which moved west. Also, about 300,000 years ago, the grey wolf returned to North America over the ice. "Our wolf is more closely related to the coyote than it would be to the grey wolf, which would be one or two million years distinct from it," Mr. Wilson said. Mr. Wilson is now collecting several crucial historical samples to test his theory. Last week, he obtained a cutting from a 1949 coyote hide in the New Brunswick Museum's collection. This animal predates the arrival of coyotes in New Brunswick by at least a couple of decades and may be a remnant eastern Canadian wolf or one of the first arrivals of coyote-and-wolf hybrids. Wolves were extirpated from New Brunswick in the 1800s. Mr. Wilson has also collected a sample of a wolf-like animal from Maine killed in the 1860s that is now in the Harvard University collection. He has obtained another sample from the 1890s in New York, which would have predated the arrival of coyotes there. Mr. Wilson has found coyote-like genetic material in the Algonquin wolves that is not found in pure coyotes. The DNA strongly suggests these animals shared a common ancestor about 300,000 years ago. Now he wants to confirm these genetic characteristics in samples that predate the arrival of coyotes. If he can find the coyote-like genetic markers in these historical samples, this will confirm that there was a wolf that evolved in North America that is closely related to coyotes. Because these samples predate the arrival of coyotes, he will know that this genetic material is present because of a common evolution, not as a result of interbreeding. "Looking at these historical samples is a direct test of whether this model is accurate," Mr. Wilson said. He is also attempting to obtain DNA markers from Manitoba wolf teeth that date back 5,000 years. The western border for the eastern wolf may have extended into Manitoba and this ancient DNA, if it is not degraded, could provide a crucial piece of the puzzle. His lab has collected a data bank of about 4,000 wolves and coyotes, including a couple of hundred samples from New Brunswick. The wolf genetics work is an interesting academic exercise, but it is also important for the protection of these animals. If it is proven that the Algonquin wolf is a species distinct from the grey wolf, it needs to be protected. Mr. Wilson believes eastern Canadian wolves survive better in a human disturbed ecosystem than do grey wolves. If these eastern wolves encounter human disturbance, they are less likely to disappear and instead begin to interbreed with coyotes. "Once you get that coyote-and-wolf hybrid, it is a very adaptable animal," Mr. Wilson said. "That's why it's doing so well here in New Brunswick." The Laurentide wolves, which live two hours north of Quebec and are geographically isolated, represent one of the few remaining eastern timber wolf populations that have not hybridized with coyotes
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Post by dj88ryr on Jul 8, 2004 7:36:08 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Jul 8, 2004 8:05:22 GMT -6
I look at the wolf/coyote thing like I do the coydog thing.
There have been many studies on coydogs- and the conscenous has been that yes, crosses do occur...but they quickly die out and don't contribute to the gene pool of the area. (mainly do to the time of heat periods and pair bonding, pup care)
Consider canine genetics. Or any genetics. Even if a cross is made- to have ANY influence except for a very rare popping up of a "sport"- just isn't good sceince. The wolf/coyote cross would have to have been made constantly and be widespread to have any influence past a litter of pups or two. In the short generation cycle of canines- outcrosses...and a wolf would be a forsure outcross- are reabsorbed into the gene pool. It would take a concerted, delibarate effort to install any wolf characteristics into a coyote.
Now- are NE coyotes a different strain than say Minnesota coyotes? I have no doubt that they probably are- look how many strains of deer or coon, etc they are.
I agree- it would be an enormously interesting study to trace dna patterns in coyote migration. MN for example has always had coyotes. Up north, they are a smaller coyote, darker and much coarser fur. They were always called brush wolfs up until a decade ago- and many locals up north still refer to them as such.
But down here- we for sure have a different strain...almost a western coyote in color and fur quality. Very nice, white silky bellies on a large %.
Did they move in from the Dakotas? Or were they always here..just in very few numbers.
This site pleases me in that it brings discussions to a whole new level.
Very elegantly put! I agree.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 8, 2004 8:09:11 GMT -6
hoernhunter- i've read that study before...and while it is interesting, it is also.... controversial if you will.
Not near enough evidence has been gathered- esp concerning common ancestors of the coyote and wolf.
In other words, common dna does not necesarily mean recent interbreeding.
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Post by a1foxhopper on Jul 8, 2004 8:11:41 GMT -6
I don't know if your overloading the site Hornhunter, but your oveloading my brain after working all night! No complaints though! GOOD STUFF!
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Post by Hornhunter on Jul 8, 2004 11:31:00 GMT -6
I'll back off! It was alot of Info. if i could have inserted a link to these It would have been better. Yes, nothing conclusive On any study, lots of therories. But they are here. scruffy fur, mixed cvolors some all black, some red, a few even white or (white-ish) A taxidemist i know had several coyote mounts. Some live mounts. Some shoulder mounts, Desided to have a live mount done till I saw a couple he had completed. they where just too small in the head area. And the shape of the head Is not the same as ours. One full mount of a standing coyote was an outstanding job. but i could notice right off that the head was too small. He had used the largest coyote form for the head you can buy. I did have him do a rug with the full head mount. mouth open showing teeth. Noticed right away the head was too small Ears too long??. My sister's first comment was gee! the head is too small! I gave one "snared" to a friend that wanted a full mount done. The taxidemist did a real poor job.( Never told the friend that!) Again the head stood out as not the right size. this one weighed 48 lbs. colors just stood out on It's face. Impressive looking. Not saying I'm right about my Theories?? I just think all taxidemist coyote forms are molded after a western yote. And maybe these mixed with wolf have bigger skulls?? Did notice in a taxi-supply catalog. That a large coyote, and a small wolf's measurements where quite close.
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Post by Deadfall_Paul on Jul 8, 2004 11:34:26 GMT -6
I, too, agree on the overloading of one's brain.
This is great.
I have cut and pasted the articles and am now keeping a file of all this info.
All I can say is thanks everyone for taking the time to share the knowledge.
I have caught some coyotes in the 50 -70# range in Central N.Y. and by the look of them you would swear they were wolves.
One thing I question is all the talk of introducing wolves back to the Adirondacks when, in fact, they may have never been absent.
The evolution of a species. Super !!!
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Post by kevinupp on Jul 8, 2004 11:59:08 GMT -6
I had to read a few of the old settlers memiors for one of my wildlife classes and determine what they were talking about. The names of the animals were omitted from the papers and only the desciptions/habitats/food sources were left.
I got to go over a few that described to a TEE the eastern coyote in many different color phases. Now remember these were from the late 1700's early 1800's and the people describing them were Europeans. I was shocked to find them calling them wolves. They called them either timber wolves or red wolves.
We discussed these extensively in class and came to the conclusion, that has been backed by some wildlife experts, that what these people were seeing were in fact coyotes. Being Europeans and only having wolves, they automatuically assumed that they were looking at wolves.
No-one was saying that in some instances they weren't seeing wolves, but rather that the primary "dog" they were viewing were coyotes.
As to the DNA. It would be neat to see a study done between the eastern yote and the western. I think you would see a little difference, maybe just enoiugh to actually break them down into 2 different or even 3 different sub-species.
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